These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 24 [12 April 1998 - 1 June 1998] 691: Being At Ease on Tekumel 692: More on Slaves 693: The City of Ru Reply 694: Being at Ease on Tekumel Reply 695: The City of Khirgar 696: More on Being At Ease 697: Other Volumes Similar to Deeds 698: Being at Ease Further Reply 699: Other Volumes Reply 700: Stability/Change 701: Natural History of Tekumel 702: Administrative Message 703: Humorous Survey 704: Web Site Update 705: Unmapped Tekumel 706: Engsvan hla Ganga 707: Legion Camp Practices 708: Provinces of Tsolyanu 709: Churstalli Revisited 710: Other Non-Humans 711: Web Site/Vulcans/Fonts 712: The Non-Humans 713: Unmapped Tekumel Reply 714: More on Provinces 715: Natural History Reply 716: Other Non-Humans Response 717: Plain of Towers 718: More on New Religions 719: Miscellaneous Questions 720: Natural History Response ******************************* //691 [Moderator's Note: George Hammond asks about being at ease on Tekumel. ] Hello all! In the midst of a conversation with the inimitable Messrs. Saul and Schwartz, an interesting question came up regarding Tsolyani society. We were wondering what, if any, mechanisms there are in the society for releasing social tension. The intense regard for status and position, and the constant concern with reputation and noble action, would seem to make nearly all social interaction pretty stressful for the middle and upper strata, and the constant squeeze of tax collection, rents, inducements to magistrates, etc. on the rural classes would seem to press hard as well. When do Tsolyani relax? Are there social events that release this pressure? On the individual level, it appears that adults can only "let their hair down" in the company of a few explicitely acknowledged friends, nearly always of the same sex and clan. True? or have I overlooked something? On a larger group level, the Sourcebook suggests that there is some relaxation of the social boundaries in the Hirilakte arenas, and I imagine that some of the more ecstatic temple rites might have this effect. Are there other large social events that might serve this purpose? My impression is that the 5 Empires at least have nothing like Euro cultures' carnivals or feasts of misrule. thanks, George ----- //692 [Moderator's Note: Justin Bacon provides even more info on the slave topic. ] John Smith wrote: >The whole point which moderns seem to have trouble grasping is simply >that slaves are NOT people. They are essentially appliances. That >swain would pay no more attention to that slave oarsman than we would to >an outboard motor. Practical example: in, I believe, the Le'Morte de Arthur: Guinevere and Launcelot are having one of their highly "scandalous" dialogues when suddenly, out of the blue for a modern audience, mention is made of Guinevere's maids doing this that or the other thing. Your immediate reaction is, "But-- but-- but-- they would never have that conversation in front of others!" The medieval reaction is merely, "What do you mean? They're just servants. They're always about." Justin Bacon ----- //693 [Moderator's Note: Phil wrote to let me know he made an error in the ] [ original message 693. This replacement makes the proper] [ changes. You should delete the previous copy. ] [Moderator's Note: The Professor answers Tom's question about Ru. ] The little city of Ru is an anomaly: a Tsolyani town right on the border of Salarvya, with which it trades constantly. It has come under considerable Salarvyani influence but still retains its essential Tsolyani character. There was an article in the old Wargamer's Digest about the Battle of Ru -- I imagine one of our bibliographers can find you the reference to the issue. I don't have a map of the place, as nearly as I can recall, but I do recall that the town was founded during the Tsolyani wars in Salarvya fought by Emperor Kanmi'yel Nikuma I (1,031-1,067 A.S.). Later, at the time of the Siege of Mmillaka, Emperor Hejjeka II "the Heretic" (1,325-1,340).populated it with colonists from the east-central provinces of the Empire. He expected the settlement to be the first to carry the banners of Tsolyanu into the Salarvyani homeland. This did not work: the "invasion" ended in a stand-off, with the Tsolyani facing a sea of hostile Salarvyani around them. The Salarvyani tolerated Ru because it was a useful trading depot, but they allowed few Tsolyani into their own areas, and the teaching of the Tsolyani temples was forbidden (in particular the Engsvanyali doctrine that the two goddesses, Avanthe and Dlamelish, are separate beings; the Salarvyani consider them both Aspects of one Goddess: Shiringgayi). Emperor Gyesmu, the Iron Fist (2,015-2,065 A.S.), restored Ru and started to construct fortifications and public buildings, but these were left unfinished when he died. Up until the short reign of Emperor Dhich'une, Ru was a quiet backwater town, with both Tsolyani and Salarvyani merchants and culture. With Emperor Hirkane gone, the Salarvyani struck out from Koyluga and Khum to take it back. They managed to capture Ru but could not hold it against Tsolyani counterattacks. They were persuaded not to burn the town to the ground by the Governor of Ru, who pointed out that scorched earth tends to spread back toward those who begin it. (The merchant clans of Ru are also allied to mercantile clans in Salarvya; this was another reason the town still stands.) The city is roughly an oval, with various small lakes and ponds on the south, in the midst of lush fields and groves of trees. The Gilraya Forest begins to the west, and parties of noble hunters often come to try their luck with Serudla and other beasts there. About 80-90 Tsan to the south lies the ancient city of Mmilaka, besieged by Emperor Hejjeka II during the 1300. It is much more a typical Salarvyani town, with bulbous domes, thick pillars, ornate decoration, and colourful and opulent palaces. Regards, Phil ----- //694 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies to George's question about being ] [ at ease on Tekumel. ] >Hello all! >In the midst of a conversation with the inimitable Messrs. Saul and >Schwartz, an interesting question came up regarding Tsolyani society. We >were wondering what, if any, mechanisms there are in the society for >releasing social tension. The intense regard for status and position, and >the constant concern with reputation and noble action, would seem to make >nearly all social interaction pretty stressful for the middle and upper >strata, and the constant squeeze of tax collection, rents, inducements to >magistrates, etc. on the rural classes would seem to press hard as well. >When do Tsolyani relax? Are there social events that release this >pressure? There are lots of localised parties and ceremonies within the clanhouses. There are games and pastimes, too. These do not tend to be more universalised: e.g. there is no Jakalla Serudlas baseball team. The gladiatorial fights in the Hirilakte Arenas are about the equivalent of TV-violence-watching. Many people gamble, both with friends and also at parties. Drinking and getting slightly snookered please some folk, while others prefer listening to music, watching slave dancers swing and sway, etc. In the villages there are real folkdances with a lot of jokes and raillery, One must watch one's tongue, of course, and make no jokes or comments that touch upon someone's honour and nobility; that way lies Shamtla and conflict. The stresses and conflicts you mention in your first paragraph are quite accurate and real, but people tend to adjust and survive them, just as New Yorkers here seem to survive the myriad pressures of their complex city. What you are asking, I think, is whether there are times, environments, etc. in which the Tsolyani "let down their hair" and relax with each other in looser, "democratic" style: make insulting jokes, laugh and enjoy each other's company as American youths seem to do. Sorry to say that this is rather rare on Tekumel. >On the individual level, it appears that adults can only "let their hair >down" in the company of a few explicitely acknowledged friends, nearly >always of the same sex and clan. True? or have I overlooked something? True. Within the clanhouses one can relax somewhat with one's relatives, chosen friends, and clansmen. Once in awhile old friends can relax and do this across clan boundaries and even religious boundaries. Crossing the lines between high and low clans, diamterically opposed religions, or national/cultural lines is still more rare, although instances can be cited. >On a larger group level, the Sourcebook suggests that there is some >relaxation of the social boundaries in the Hirilakte arenas, and I imagine >that some of the more ecstatic temple rites might have this effect. Coupling a high noble with a lower class washerwoman might be briefly possible but can lead to nothing lasting. The temples of Dlamelish and Avanthe try to provide worshippers with social intercourse between equals and near-equals. These rituals are thus carefully structured so that various groups famous for their stiff arrogance are never paired off with partners who are from much lower ranks of society. Thus, the Vriddi of Fasiltum, the aristocrats of the Cloak of Asure Gems, etc. are usually seated where they can mix with people of similar rank and station. If one of these great lords or ladies actually sees a lower class person with whom they wish to have a ritual sexual relation (or just a plain oldfashioned sexual relation), they may try to find a way to "buy" the love-object or induce him/her to accept "inducements" in exchange for favours. This is considered all right. If the woman doesn't chew her Lisutl root and produces a child, the upper-class father may pay her something as a gift for the child (she has no right to "sue" him). Upper-class fathers have also been known to have unwanted offspring quietly killed, but this is abnormal because such children have no rights to the father's property whatsoever. Slaves and the lowest clans have few rights: a slave "lover" (male or female) can be passed to a guest for the night without any social inconvenience. The slave has no freedom of choice. >Are there other large social events that might serve this purpose? My >impression is that the 5 Empires at least have nothing like Euro cultures' >carnivals or feasts of misrule. This is accurate. The Tsolyani do not relax in public since to appear "out of character" is interpreted as a loss of nobility and a lowering of station. The ritual masks of Lord Ksarul are worn for religious reasons; no Tsolyani would appear masked at a Hallowe'en party -- that would not be "noble." Making a fool of oneself is a quick way of losing your clan's, family's, relatives', etc. respect for you. Hope this answers -- and raises -- a few questions. Regards, Phil ----- //695 [Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski asks about Khirgar. Professor, what ] [ can you offer James in terms of details? Do you have ] [ a map (or any of the Thursday night crew)? ] I am in the process of producing a short description of the northern Tsolyani city of Khirgar. In order to do this adequately, a map of the city will need to be made. I have rather limited cartographic skills, especially when it comes to Tekumelani cities. If there is anyone who has both the skills and the inclination to assist me in this endeavor, please contact me. Thanks, James ----- //696 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul elaborates on the subject of being at ease on ] [ Tekumel. ] >of character" is interpreted as a loss of nobility and a lowering of >station. The ritual masks of Lord Ksarul are worn for religious reasons; no >Tsolyani would appear masked at a Hallowe'en party -- that would not be >"noble." Making a fool of oneself is a quick way of losing your clan's, >family's, relatives', etc. respect for you. >Hope this answers -- and raises -- a few questions. It does indeed, thanks! Extremely stratified and ritualized Earth cultures generally have some sort of safety valve, either official or not. In Japan, for example, they have drink. (It's my understanding that you are not blamed for what you do while drunk, and are in fact expected to act like an idiot.) In medieval England, they had feasts of misrule, and other specific holidays during which you could act nuts and blow off steam. In India, they not only have some "officially" wild holidays, like Diwali, where people seem to get badly out of control, but they also apparently have regularly-scheduled street riots in New Delhi. In Bali (I think), they didn't have anything culture-wide, but individuals could go Amok. University of Michigan students riot when our teams win national titles, and every year, on the last day of classes, thousands of students strip naked and run a mile through campus, aided by much alcohol. The list goes on... It *seems* to be a general principle that, if you have a society under constant social pressure to behave "well," it will either have formal escape valves for human misbehavior -- or humans will create their own escape valves when things get unbearable. If that isn't too broad an assumption, then the lack of formal opportunities to misbehave without repercussions in Tsolyanu would seem to suggest that occasional informal eruptions might be the rule. Is this, for example, part of the cause of the annual Jakalla Food Riots? Or do things "happen" more often than we're told, and get hushed up by the clans? Or am I making far too broad an assumption about human cultures? (I admit that I'm not trained in cultural anthropology.) Joe Saul ----- //697 [Moderator's Note: Dwight Grosso asks about other volumes similar to Deeds ] [ of the Ever Glorious. ] Did Professor Barker ever work on books similar to Deeds of the Ever Glorious? Some mention of the other nation's more noted units are brushed over in the armies source books, but they just as satisfying as Deeds of the Ever Glorious. I am particularly interested in the Gurek of the clan of the Red and Green Banner of Dharu and the Gurek of the City of Vanu, as well as the Gurek of Ngaku. Any information would be appreciated. [Moderator's Note: None that I am familiar with, how about it Professor? ] Sincerely, Dwight Grosso ----- //698 [Moderator's Note: The Professor provides more information on being at ease.] [ Further Note: I am going on a mini vacation, leaving today (Friday) ] [ and I won't be returning until Monday. So there will be] [ a couple of extra days of silence. One more message ] [ will follow this one. ] You are pretty correct about escape valves in different societies around the world. Many rather stiff and formal cultures do "blow loose" on certain occasions. >[Moderator's Note: Joe Saul elaborates on the subject of being at ease on ] >[ Tekumel. ] > >>of character" is interpreted as a loss of nobility and a lowering of >>station. The ritual masks of Lord Ksarul are worn for religious reasons; no >>Tsolyani would appear masked at a Hallowe'en party -- that would not be >>"noble." Making a fool of oneself is a quick way of losing your clan's, >>family's, relatives', etc. respect for you. > >>Hope this answers -- and raises -- a few questions. > >It does indeed, thanks! > >Extremely stratified and ritualized Earth cultures generally have some sort of >safety valve, either official or not. In Japan, for example, they have drink. >(It's my understanding that you are not blamed for what you do while >drunk, and >are in fact expected to act like an idiot.) In medieval England, they had >feasts of misrule, and other specific holidays during which you could act nuts >and blow off steam. In India, they not only have some "officially" wild >holidays, like Diwali, where people seem to get badly out of control, but they >also apparently have regularly-scheduled street riots in New Delhi. In Hindu India, it is not so much Diwali (the feast of lights) as the spring festival of Holi, when young fellows gather in the streets to spray each other with dyed water, and generally raise a bit of trouble. Holi is largely celebrated by town-city middle-class youths, but it does tend to spread amongst other groups as well. The third festival is Dashera, in which great paper effigies of the demon Ravan are carried through the streets and joyfully burned to commemorate the slaying of the demon by Ram and Lakhsman, who thus rescued Ram's wife, Sita. Sunni Muslims in India have the two 'Eid festivals: feasting getting new clothes, going to the public prayers. Shi'ah Muslims have the great commemoration of Muharram, mourning the death of the Prophet's grandson,Imam Husein. Men carry models of Husein's tomb through the streets, beat their breasts, and eventually end by burning the models ceremonially at a graveyard outside the city. Some exuberant fellows actually flog themselves with whips and chains, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness. I have also seen Shi'ah youths walk on blazing coals and perform other feats. >It *seems* to be a general principle that, if you have a society under >constant >social pressure to behave "well," it will either have formal escape valves for >human misbehavior -- or humans will create their own escape valves when things >get unbearable. If that isn't too broad an assumption, then the lack of >formal >opportunities to misbehave without repercussions in Tsolyanu would seem to >suggest that occasional informal eruptions might be the rule. Is this, for >example, part of the cause of the annual Jakalla Food Riots? Or do things >"happen" more often than we're told, and get hushed up by the clans? There is probably more scope for "letting one's hair down" in Tsolyanu than there is in many Terran societies: hunting, wrestling, gladiatorial games, drinking, gaming, and a fairly unfettered view of sex, all provide escape valves. You want a little wildness? Try a picnic with a dozen Dlamelish priestesses! Or a quiet whingding with their "Sisters in the Emerald," the pretty acolytes of Lady Hrihayal's temple -- if you are not afraid of coming back covered with welts and scars! >Or am I making far too broad an assumption about human cultures? (I admit >that >I'm not trained in cultural anthropology.) There are certainly societies in which unfettered raucousness and riot are *not* favoured or countenanced, but almost everybody has a "way out." Many of the religious festivals described in Bob Alberti's "Mitlanyal" are just that: they have features that permit various levels of "looseness" and "ingotmality." Regards, Phil ----- //699 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies to the other volumes question. ] Alas, none was ever completed. I did *want* to do histories and guidebeooks for the other nations, but life kept getting in the way! I did complete a history of Engsvanyalu, which is now on the Blue Room ftp site. I also included fairly copious materials in the Sourcebook -- but not to the same level as "Deeds," Sorry! I did publish "The Book of Ebon Bindings," dealing with demonology, and another booklet on the Sunuz language and magic system, also up on the ftp site. These, again, are interesting but do not offer the kind of historical-military coverage you wish. >[Moderator's Note: Dwight Grosso asks about other volumes similar to Deeds ] >[ of the Ever Glorious. ] > >Did Professor Barker ever work on books similar to Deeds of the Ever Glorious? >Some mention of the other nation's more noted units are brushed over in the >armies source books, but they just as satisfying as Deeds of the Ever >Glorious. I am particularly interested in the Gurek of the clan of the Red and >Green Banner of Dharu and the Gurek of the City of Vanu, as well as the Gurek >of Ngaku. Any information would be appreciated. I'll try to get around to at least the sketchy outlines of histories of these Gurek. >[Moderator's Note: None that I am familiar with, how about it Professor? ] Regards, Phil ----- //700 [Moderator's Note: Sorry for the long delay, but last week I was having fun ] [ in sunny Florida. My wife and I went on our first real ] [ "going somewhere for more than a day or 2" vacation in 5 ] [ years. It was great, and I am back and ready to rumble. ] [ You guys have been active in my absence, and I have a ton] [ of stuff to get out. Here are a couple of messages I ] [ tried to get out before I left, but failed. Chris ] [ Paul Snow asks about Stability and Change and how the ] [ dichotomy is carried over into everyday life. ] I have a question for the Prof. and for anyone else who has an opinion. Perhaps, Bob Alberti could comment as it is on religion or possibly religious philosophy. Does the Stability/Change dichotomy really represent a fundamental concept of Tsolyani philosophy (or indeed popular psychology) as the division of the Tsolyani pantheon implies? Although it's there as a division of the Gods, are there other manifestations in Tsolyani life? I can't think of any clear ones but why would the Tsolyani (and only the Tsolyani ?) construct this symmetry in their religious world view if it didn't arise from or relate to a more general view of this split in the nature of the world or how they perceive it? Do Tsolyani look for a Stability/Change balance or imbalance in their lives? Rather than feeling in two minds when they can't decide on something might they think that their restless Change side was busiest today such that it was dominating their Stable side? Or, for example, if your clan's Chlen herd was frightenly restless one day would you think, a) Hmm. They didn't enjoy the slops bucket today. b) Oh. The weather must be changing. c) The Change demons are pricking their hides today. We're in for some trouble. Best wishes, Paul Snow ----- //701 [Moderator's Note: George Hammond writes about information on the flora and] [ fauna of Tekumel. The Professor often says he isn't a ] [ biologist, so that area of Tekumel has been covered less] [ completely than others. There are other articles on the] [ blueroom web/ftp site. None are specifically on this ] [ topic, however (I don't believe there are any specific ] [ articles other than the Bestiary). ] [ A previous message listed all the plants and where they ] [ were noted in many of the Professor's works. Check your] [ back messages. ] Greetings all, I'd like to know what sources there are for information on the flora and fauna of Tekumel. I have copies of the Bestiary, vol 1 of the Swords & Glory Sourcebook (the Gamescience version) and the novels, but I know nothing of the less accessible essays and defunct periodicals. I'm hoping to write some contributions of my own (I'm a biologist, and enjoy thinking about alien ecologies), but I don't want to overlap or infringe on others' efforts. Also, could Dr. Barker or others suggest what texts or learned sages a Tsolyani scholar might refer to for knowledge of the "natural" world? I would imagine that the libraries of the Temples of Avanthe and Thumis would be most helpful (and perhaps of Ksarul if one were privy to such things), but I would be glad to know of classic works, famous savants, or obscure tomes of wisdom that might exist. Many thanks, George Hammond ----- //702 [Moderator's Note: This is a news message. It covers 2 topics. The first is] [ the form incoming posts take, and the other is some good ] [ news from a player in Phil's Thursday night campaign. ] First, I'd like to ask everyone to submit stuff to me in text format. I just received a ton of good stuff, but I am going to have to edit it down to remove the accented letters, etc. This email stuff can do attachments these days, but everyone doesn't use the same email program and system type. This leads to a couple of problems. I either have to edit them out (I am looking at writing a macro in a handy little text editor I have to remove them auto- magically) or reject them (which I have never done). Please also be sure to turn off the HTML response generator of your mailer if it has that option. There are quite a few people who use text based email systems still. I don't want to exclude them. I don't want to prevent people from sending me stuff, but if you do send it with accents and other non-standard characters it will take a bit of time to get the message processed. I am happy to edit the messages, it just will take extra time. I'd rather do the work and not miss out on the material. On the other hand, if you have tons of experience with this, and want to offer a suggestion as to how I can accept this type of message, please email any suggestions you have! ---- A player in Phil's Thursday night game, Giovanna Fregni wrote in response to George Hammond's request for biological data. Gio illustrated the Bestiary, and she has been busy during the Thursday night game taking notes whenever Phil introduces the group to a new being. She sketches them and asks Phil to elaborate on them. She has offered to share this info. We are conversing on what the best way would be for that material to hit the ftp/web site. We'll keep you informed. Chris ----- //703 [Moderator's Note: On a light note, here is a humorous survey of some ] [ sections of the Tekumelani population. ] [ NOTE: As with any topic that even 1 person may find offensive, this ] [ is a warning. If you are easily offended or scandalized, do not ] [ read this. ] I have an idea. In the interest of injecting some Vrayani irony or Kurt Hills crudity into the conversation, what about doing some mock surveys of the inhabitants of foreigners quarters? For instance, citizens of the various Empires and non-human enclaves could be polled on questions regarding sex, politics, religion, customs, hygiene, cuisine, etc. An arbitrarily representative response could be printed for each each group. For example: A selection of the higher status inhabitants of the Bey Su foreigners quarter were asked the following question: "What is foreplay ?" The responses included the following. A Salarvyani male: "Waking up." A Salarvyani Female: "Meeting an attractive blind person." A N'luss male: "Brace yourself Byorzda !" A N'luss female: "Finding a room with a high ceiling." A Mu'ugalavyani male: "What's foreplay ? A Mu'ugalavyani female: "Eye-contact with a foreigner." A Ghatoni male: "Paying a low price for her." A male from the Kurt Hills: Why the f--- don't you go to the Temple of Dlamelish and ask them to show you." A female from the Kurt Hills: "Drop your kilt; I like scribes." A male Vrayani: "Lying to those who take surveys." A female Vrayani: "Laying in unquestioned repose." The preceding survey does not necessarily reflect the opinions of any servant of the Palace of the Realm, the anonymous respondents, their relatives, legally declared friends or any agents of the Omnipotent Azure Legion present or observing at the time. Steve Pisani ----- //704 [Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski gives a progress report on his web site.] I'd like to thank everyone who made suggestions and gave me advice about my forthcoming Tekumel website. I very much appreciated this. As things stand right now, the website isn't a high priority for me. I have a dissertation to complete as well as other more mundane chores. Needless to say, my time will be somewhat limited. Nevertheless, I do expect the site to go online sometime during the summer. I hope it's before July, but I make no promises. The site will concentrate on roleplaying in Tekumel. Included online will be variant rules (for Gardasiyal mostly) that I use (as well as others), character sheets, NPC descriptions, locales, and adventure seeds. I'll also try to include setting information that isn't easily found elsewhere. While most Tekumel websites are devoted to the world of Tekumel itself, I intend this one to be dedicated to the world as a setting for gaming. That is, after all, why I am interested in Tekumel. When the site goes online, I'll make certain to inform the mailing list. Thanks again, James Maliszewski ----- //705 [Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski writes about the unexplored areas of ] [ Tekumel. (The Thursday night group has had a big ] [ adventure on the other side of the planet. Maybe some ] [ of them could chime in and write about their experiences.] I have long taken pleasure in the wonderful maps of Tekumel included with both Swords & Glory and now Gardasiyal. They're simply wonderful to look at and have a great deal of flavor to them. When I realize that these maps detail only one continent of one hemisphere, I find my imagination wandering off into the "terra incognita" of Tekumel, the unexplored places that even the Professor has never described. I'd be curious to hear if anyone has ever run adventures or campaigns centered around the exploration of the unknown lands of Tekumel. From hints here and there, it certainly seems as if the Thursday Night Group has had run-ins with visitors from beyond Tsolyanu's continent. I'd love to hear more about others' thoughts on this matter. Thanks, James Maliszewski ----- //706 [Moderator's Note: Adam Levine asks about Engsvan hla Ganga and its current ] [ state. The Professor replies. ] >Are there any areas under the sea in Engsvan hla Ganga that might have >been preserved? Given the pocket created by Fu Shi'i under the sea >(Flamesong) and the nature of the dome in the Domed City under Jakalla, >it seems possible that some enterprising member of the College of Ever >Whizzing Lizards might have found it desirable over that past few >thousand years to see if anything survived. Where Ganga once stood is now at the bottom of a rather shallow bay, filled with alluvial mud brought down by the Missuma River. You can still see the tops of broken towers and tumbled walls when the water is clear, and there are guides and tourist boats that will take you out there and show you what they call "the great palace" and the "Temple of Pavar," and a host of other wonders. A few wizards have underwater breathing capabilities (actually openings to other Planes where there is air) and have trod the mosaic floors of the Priestkings' pavilions. Much of whatever was there has been looted or buried in mud. Much has been ruined, too: the guides usually point down into the water at a round-domed squat tower and tell the tourists that this is the Imperial library. One of the wizards then wrote that he had personally visited that building and had found nothing there but waterlogged paper and ruined bookbindings, But he also said that he saw "boxes of metal" and chests -- perhaps waterproof? Gems and gold and other wealth have all been systematically looted from sunken Ganga. Some was rescued by the Priestkings' minions themselves, other stuff was scavenged by local boys diving for it, and still more has been acquired since by other means. There is probably not much left on the surface of the sea-bottom. There may indeed be air-filled chambers somewhere down there, and really complex tunnel systems fed with air from the Planes Beyond are possible. If these exist, they are well guarded and concealed. I did read somewhere that the Temple of Sarku maintains a sub-sea shrine down in the ancient Engsvanyali catacombs -- in honour of the myriad dead buried there. Regards, Phil ----- //707 [Moderator's Note: Charlie Goering asks a series of questions about how ] [ Legions make their camps in the field. ] >1/ When Legions are in the field and make camp do they operate like the >ancient Roman Legions and build a camp following a standard pattern each >night? I assume such labor would be noble as part of a soldier's duty. Military camps are indeed fairly standard when operating in similar terrain. A perimeter is established and defended with a ditch, stakes (if available), and timber towers and walls, if materials are there. A wall of adobe or sod is also common in some parts of the Empire. Soldiers themselves are used as a labour force in areas where local labour is insufficient, but if the peasantry can be hired to do the job, they may be brought along on an expedition and given these tasks. In some places slaves have been employed, and prisoners of war have been used, too, though this usually costs more effort in guard duty than it is worth. At the Siege of Mmillaka in 1,218 the Emperor ordered all of the local brothels emptied and the girls put to work carrying baskets of dirt and stone. After the siege there were some *very* strong young women to ply their trade! >2/ Is the construction of field fortifications handeld by the line troops when >ther are no sappers in the area, or is local labor conscripted for the task? See above. If a sapper unit is available, it will be asked to do the technical tasks. Local peasants do the slob labour, and regular soldiers perform such jobs as setting up tents, arranging for commissariats, etc. Slaves and/or lower-class labourers dig latrines, stable Chlen-beasts, and build fortifications. This is not written down in Imperial law, but custom and usage have made these arrangements pretty uniform. Officers (Captain and above) rarely work at any of this; these tasks are not seen as "noble" for the aristocracy. >3/ If a Legion was building a camp or field fortification, would it be fair to >assume that the line troopers would do the building and the officers would be >supervising (a la "Bridge on the River Kwai")? Yes, if no local labour or large bodies of slaves or war prisoners were available. >4/ Is the repair of damaged armor and weapons handled within the individual >Legion (if so, is there a seperate armorers sub-unit?) or are unservicable >items sent to a central depot for repair? Legions always have a number of soldiers detailed to repair damaged armour and weapons. These are housed near the centre of a legion encampment, and soldiers bring their gear there to be refurbished. Legion smiths are not usually asked to make *new* weapons; these are bought from contractors in one of the cities where the legion has its main headquarters. >5/ Does each Legion have their own medical section/field hospital, and how >good is battlefield medicine, and how does quality vary from Legion to Legion? Priests of Ketengku march along with many legions, even those of "Change." Some units do not give their wounded and sick over to these specialists, however, preferring their own dubious brand of treatment: e.g. ask any soldier what he thinks about "Vimuhla surgeons." Amputation and cauterising in the Flame are prescribed for many causes. The old adage has it: "Servants of the Flame had best not get headaches!" >6/ Are courts-martial considered to be Imperial Courts? Aside from the common >punishment of impalement for major crimes, what could lesser offenders expect >as punishment? Courts-martial are performed by the legions themselves, under the scrutiny of Imperial agents (there are usually a few with every legion). If there are important questions in the matter, it will be taken out of Legion hands and handled by the nearest major Palace of the Realm (or Palace of the Priesthoods in religious issues). Really tricky problems are sent on up to Avanthar. Most lesser offences -- insubordination, failing to perform a task, etc. are handled by the legions themselves with flogging, the pillory, and/or imprisonment. More serious crimes are punished by impaling or other means. Sleeping on duty, deserting a post, stealing, cheating one's comrades, etc. are some of the common crimes. For really serious executions, the legion may call in a Mrikh, a special unit of four specialists; cf. "Flamesong." >7/ Now that the succession has been settled, is Emperor Mirusiya planning to >liberate the rest of the Chakas from the Mu'ugalavyani? If so, the 22nd Heavy >Infantry is a natural choice as we call the region home. Your legion will probably be sent. Nobody yet knows what military plans the new God-Emperor has, but the Mu'ugalavyani have been observed strenthening walls and fortifications all along the frontier. They have also deployed most of their Pe Choi legions down to Livyanu and brought home more of their loyal human troops. They may know something I don't. Regards, Phil ----- //708 [Moderator's Note: George Hammond asks about the Provinces of Tsolyanu. ] [ The Professor answers. Phil, do the provinces have ] [ names (other than trivial ones like the western or ] [ souther province)? Or are they referred to by the ] [ name of the capital? ] >I noticed recently that the Swords & Glory Sourcebook makes several >references to Provinces ruled by Governors within the Tsolyani Empire. >The provinces seem to be the first level of political division below the >Petal Throne itself. I have been unable to find any information as to the >number of provinces, their boundaries, or their capitals. Could someone >direct me to the appropriate source? In Volume I of "Swords and Glory" published by "Different Worlds," there is a brown-paper centrefold map of the province names. There are no city names, so you'll have to overlay this map with one showing towns and roads; the biggest town in each province is usually the capital, where the Governor has his palace, entourage, barracks, etc. Provincial administration is handled from the governor's palace, down through the local Palace of the Realm, and to the town mayors, and thence to the village headmen. Most provinces have their own labour forces, constabulary, Sakbe-road police, secondary road police, etc. There are not many other social services, although some provinces maintain builders and sanitation units. THere is a liaison between the province's governor and military headquarters with the legions established in that province, too. The temples also maintain representatives at each governor's court to deal with religious matters and solve disputes: e.g. the temple of Belkhanu last year was instrumental in mediating a dispute between the Temple of Hru'u and the Temple of Avanthe over who could use the main avenue through Jakalla on a certain day for a religious procession. (The decision was solved in favour of the Goddess since her sect *required* a ceremony on just that day, while the Temple of Hru'u had three or four alternate choices.) Regards, Phil ----- //709 [Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski asks about information provided in a ] [ question about the Churstalli. The Professor replies. ] >In a recent posting to the mailing list (message 686), David Peters asked >about the Churstalli. In his response, Professor Barker stated that these >creatures "seem to have been brought to Tekumel from one of the Pe Choi >worlds, apparently as zoological curiosities." > >The Tekumel Sourcebook, however, indicates that the Churstalli are "distant >cousins of the Ssu and the Hluss" (p 27). Which is correct? Is the response >in message 686 a new understanding of the Churstalli that supersedes the old >one? These are two competing theories. There is no "hard evidence" one way or the other. I should have stated this in one of the printed sources. One cannot "ask" a Ssu or Hluss anything, and the Churstalli themselves do not communicate with any but their own kind. No archaeological "digs" have ever been done in Gashchne or farther out on the Plain of Towers. Such would be hazardous, and most Mu'ugalavyani see no purpose to such non-practical questions. The identification with the Ssu and Hluss is based, perhaps, more on the Churstalli's number and placement of limbs and their general appearance, rather than on "hard science." On the other hand, the Pe Choi deny any relationship to them, saying that they sense no kinship with these beasts. There is also a scholar in the Temple of Ksarul at Jakalla, one Balai hiChankolun, who theorises that the Churstalli are the remnants of a great race that arrived "from the Lost Home of the Gods" (a common Ksarul myth for "who knows?") via the "towers" (the ships that stand empty and alone on the Plane of Towers). His idea is that these beasts were once bred and modified to serve as guardians and warriors, but that they have now "de-evolved" to less than their original state. It's a nice theory, and it is the cause of some controversy. Regards, Phil ----- //710 [Moderator's Note: Peter Huston asks the Professor about the Non-Human races] [ that did not survive to present day Tekumel. ] >Among the many wonderful aspects of Tekumel are the fascinating non-humans. >He's mentioned a few, by name, which did not (as far as we know) make it to >Tekumel and survive to the present. You're asking a very large question, one that I could write dissertations on! There are hundreds -- thousands -- of species of animals, plants, and "critters" that are just not mentioned in any of the sources. This is because (a) we didn't need them for the game, (b) I didn't need them in the novels or publications, (c) I do not know enough about technical zoology/botany and other biological matters to get them right. I "see" Tekumel: shut my eyes and almost visually "see" shapes and colours. Thus, if a new animal is encountered, I shut my eyes, and there it is. How it *works* technically is often beyond me! >He's mentioned a few, by name, which did not (as far as we know) make it to >Tekumel and survive to the present. Which ones did I mention that are not somewhere described? I can tell you what they look like and some other details. >Perhaps he could offer us some descriptions of these beings. Are they >likely to be encountered elsewhere? >ON other planes of existence perhaps? Other Planes are much harder to describe than Tekumel's. Sometimes their flora and fauna are so alien that I can't do more than stare at the colours and shapes! >Also could he offer some more descriptions of the other planes and other >worlds that were popped into the pocket dimensions. Another dissertation! I wish I could write it, but time and old age conspire to keep me from it. Regards, Phil ----- //711 [Moderator's Note: Thomas Worthington updates us on his Tekumel web site. ] Chris & Everyone on the mailing list, As some of you will have noticed, the Guide to Tekumel project at my web page (www.ncl.ac.uk/~n6388131/home.htm) has ground to a halt while I was engaged in my second year at university. I intended to get back to it this easter but my hard drive died on me and I lost all my back "issues" of the mailing list. In order to get back to the guide, which I was enjoying working on even though it's quite a big task, I need a copy of the messages I've missed. Can anyone help? [Moderator's Note: I'll get Thomas the back messages. Do you need them all?] On the subject of Vulcans in post-movie Star Trek, there was an episode of STNG on the other night with a Vulcan in it & I got a good look at her costume. The costume itself is very Tekumelani but the sigil on here headress was only superficially Tsolyani, it did not match any of the published characters. This brings me to a final point - is there a postscript version of the Tsolyani fonts available. I know of a version of the public domain typesetting program TeX which handles arabic characters, and it may be possible to use the Tsolyani fonts with it to produce high-quality printouts for games, or even publications for that matter. [Moderator's Note: Check out the fonts directory of the web site. There are] [ 2 Tsolyani fonts. Reverse Tsolyani and Usenanu. RTsol- ] [ yani is reversed, and Usenanu is not. (You can take a ] [ doc in RTsolyani and mirror image it in something like ] [ Photoshop to get the proper right to left orientation. ] Thomas Worthington ----- //712 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers a question from Paul Roser about ] [ the non-human races of Tekumel. ] >I have a couple of questions about the non-human races. First of >all, we know that the Shen divide themselves up according to >egg-groups, hence the variety of smaller nations besides Shenyu, >and the Pe Choi seem to be divided (by village?) among the "wild" >Pe Choi (which I gather, simply do not align themselves with any >human nation) and those aligned with Tsolyanu (& Mu'ugalavya?); >but what of the social organizations of the other non-humans? >The Hlaka seem to be divided according to eyries, but do these >and the others view themselves as one race/nation, or do they >recognize political distinctions among themselves? The "wild" Pe Choi are separatists -- from all human society. They tend to slaughter human soldiers sent in to "rule" them. They do let human merchants go free, on the other hand, or charge them "tolls." It is very hard to write dissertations on the other races. Each one is different! The Hlaka, for example, see their eyries as separately governed by elders, but they don't seem to have come up with "nationalism." A Hlaka from one eyrie can fly to a different one and settle down, if food is scarce at his home eyrie, or if no mates are available there. It is said that the Pygmy Folk "cities" (warrens, really) are similarly structured, but nobody knows for sure. >The other question is regarding the designations for the non-humans: >are the names for these races the closest approximations that >humanity can come to pronouncing their names for themselves, or >were they names that humanity simply applied to them during the >history of their association? Mostly the latter. A few -- Ahoggya, Pachi Lei, Pe Choi -- are *said* to be poor renditions of the species' original names for themselves. Some scholars think "Pe Choi" comes from "Pav Khoi," which means "Fearsome Being" in one of the N'luss dialects. >Do these names vary across the Five >Empires, as the designation for the Pygmy Folk (Nininyal/Nyena), >Swamp Folk (Heglethyal/A'lathish) or Shunned Ones (Vleshgayal/ >Blashagh), or do all nations that are aware of them refer to, >e.g. the Ahoggya, by that name? If these names are human designations, >could Phil provide approximations of their self-designations? Most of these names are indeed human approximations, modified by millennia of mispronunciation and misunderstanding. For example, the Nininyal are called "Little Ones" in Livyani, N'luss, etc. but in Salarvyani they are termed "Hurozhte," which translates vaguely as "buried ones." The names differ across the Five Empires and beyond. I focus on Tsolyanu, of course, so that the names used there tend to become more central than other nations'. Ask an Ahoggya what it calls its own race, and you're likely to get a crude and rude reply: e.g. "we don't insult your funny little species, so why insult us? 'Ahoggya' is good enough!" -- plus possibly a heap of Ahoggya dung on your shoes... The Shen say their name was given to them by the humans of southern Livyanu long ago. There is now no trace of a "Shen" word in modern Livyani, and it may be Duru'ob or even Sunuz. The Shen themselves use a variety of terms which are hard to transcribe (and pronounce). They seem to treat different egg groups as different "nationalities" or even "species." Ask a Shen for the species of another Shen, and it will probably reply, "What egg-group does he/she/it belong to?" Or "What city does it come from?" There is a rather simplistic nationalism throughout Shenyu and the other little Shen states that depends upon egg-group relations. Regards, Phil ----- //713 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies about unmapped regions of Tekumel. ] >[Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski writes about the unexplored areas of ] >[ Tekumel. (The Thursday night group has had a big ] >[ adventure on the other side of the planet. Maybe some ] >[ of them could chime in and write about their experiences.] > >I have long taken pleasure in the wonderful maps of Tekumel included with >both Swords & Glory and now Gardasiyal. They're simply wonderful to look at >and have a great deal of flavor to them. >When I realize that these maps detail only one continent of one hemisphere, >I find my imagination wandering off into the "terra incognita" of Tekumel, >the unexplored places that even the Professor has never described. >I'd be curious to hear if anyone has ever run adventures or campaigns >centered around the exploration of the unknown lands of Tekumel. From hints >here and there, it certainly seems as if the Thursday Night Group has had >run-ins with visitors from beyond Tsolyanu's continent. I'd love to hear >more about others' thoughts on this matter. Over the years many players (and referees!) have tried to get parties into the unexplored and unmapped vastnesses of Tekumel. This has largely been a failure because of various reasons. The Thursday night group recently did manage to go over the North Pole and explore some of the terrain opposite Yan Kor. They can perhaps describe this better than I can since I tend to forget where they went and in what sequence. If Bob or Keith want to speak up, please do so! [Moderator's Note: Yes, a travel-log would be well received guys! ] I have several times suggested that would-be Tekumel authors should pick a region on the planet and describe it in detail, instead of doing something on the well-known Tekumelani societies I have already detailed. It is easier and more useful to "do new," rather than add to the old. I might not like the "new" creation, but with an infinity of Other Planes available, I think there is room. Anything that strikes me as "un-Tekumelani" I can myself ignore, while including materials I find appealing. People are always welcome to innovate in their own campaigns -- and publish the results on the Blue Room! [Moderator's Note: The contributor's corner is open! ] Regards, Phil ----- //714 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies to George's request about the Prov-] [ inces of Tsolyanu. Someone sent a complete list in with ] [ capital cities, but there were a couple of holes. I sent] [ it to the Professor to get them filled in. I will post ] [ the completed list when I get it back. ] >[Moderator's Note: George Hammond asks about the Provinces of Tsolyanu. ] >[ The Professor answers. Phil, do the provinces have ] >[ names (other than trivial ones like the western or ] >[ souther province)? Or are they referred to by the ] >[ name of the capital? ] The provincial map mentioned below has the province names on it. Some of these are Bednalljan, others are Engsvanyali. >In Volume I of "Swords and Glory" published by "Different Worlds," there is >a brown-paper centrefold map of the province names. There are no city >names, so you'll have to overlay this map with one showing towns and >roads; the biggest town in each province is usually the capital, where the >Governor has his palace, entourage, barracks, etc. Phil ----- //715 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies to George's question about Biology.] >[Moderator's Note: George Hammond writes about information on the flora and] >[ fauna of Tekumel. The Professor often says he isn't a ] >[ biologist, so that area of Tekumel has been covered less] >[ completely than others. There are other articles on the] >[ blueroom web/ftp site. None are specifically on this ] >[ topic, however (I don't believe there are any specific ] >[ articles other than the Bestiary). ] >[ A previous message listed all the plants and where they ] >[ were noted in many of the Professor's works. Check your] >[ back messages. ] I am at a loss to reply to this sort of technical, scientific question. I can "see" flowers and plants, and I can ask the peasants what these are used for -- but if you ask me how they reproduce, what types of dirt they require, how much water they need, etc. etc. I am at a complete loss. Many times during our Thursday night games a plant will come up, for which I give a thumbnail description. One or more of the players then wants a more complete statement, and I do my best. It is never enough, however! I must thus ask those of you who enjoy this kind of thing to use whatever is published and write up your own flora and fauna. I'll help, if I can, but I don't have a lot of energy left and would much rather spend it on some facet of Tekumel that interests me more. If you do write an article, I urge you to let me see it, then send it on to Chris or Carl Brodt for publication! >I'd like to know what sources there are for information on the flora and >fauna of Tekumel. I have copies of the Bestiary, vol 1 of the Swords & >Glory Sourcebook (the Gamescience version) and the novels, but I know >nothing of the less accessible essays and defunct periodicals. I'm hoping >to write some contributions of my own (I'm a biologist, and enjoy thinking >about alien ecologies), but I don't want to overlap or infringe on others' >efforts. The Temple of Avanthe has various books in the Goddess' great library in Bey Su that deal with plants and animals. Most of these are "practical," rather than "theoretical," however: when to plant, when to reap, how to fertilise and water, plus what practical uses (sometimes wildly incorrect) the plant can be put to, >Also, could Dr. Barker or others suggest what texts or learned sages a >Tsolyani scholar might refer to for knowledge of the "natural" world? See above. I would have to check with the scholar priests/priestesses of Avanthe's sect and see what they use. In any case, they don't seem to have a "scientific approach" to this subject in modern American/European terms. Thumis has more theoretical stuff (though still not scientific in our terms, and Ksarul is good for drugs, poisons, and killer-plants. I'll look for further basic works, if any. There probably were many such books before the Time of Darkness and the Latter Times, but most of these have either perished or become forgotten and unreadable by now. >I would imagine that the libraries of the Temples of Avanthe and Thumis >would be most helpful (and perhaps of Ksarul if one were privy to such >things), but I would be glad to know of classic works, famous savants, or >obscure tomes of wisdom that might exist. >Many thanks, >George Hammond Regards, Phil ----- //716 [Moderator's Note: Peter Huston responds to Phil's question about where he ] [ found references to other non-humans. ] >[Moderator's Note: Peter Huston asks the Professor about the Non-Human races] >[ that did not survive to present day Tekumel. ] > >>Among the many wonderful aspects of Tekumel are the fascinating non-humans. >>He's mentioned a few, by name, which did not (as far as we know) make it to >>Tekumel and survive to the present. >Which ones did I mention that are not somewhere described? I can tell you >what they look like and some other details. My source is "The Known History of Tekumel" a very interesting document the noisome tripedal Popo of Beta Aquilae the shaggy Umpleb from Delta Aquilae the insidious Bahk Muhk from Denebola and Still other species were found in the farther reaches of space. . . >>Also could he offer some more descriptions of the other planes and other >>worlds that were popped into the pocket dimensions. >Another dissertation! I wish I could write it, but time and old age >conspire to keep me from it. ----- //717 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff asks about the Plain of Towers. ] This may be an 'as you like it' question, but then, there may be an established answer, too. [Moderator's Note: None that I know of. ] Let's say that I have undergone the staggering difficulty, danger and hardship over many months (at least the equivalent of striking out for Nepal from Paris on foot), and at last, windburned and tattered, I reach the Plain of Towers. Wandering among these massive, cryptic monuments looming in the morning mist... What would I see? In short, what condition are they in? Is there a relic or an Eye that would allow entrance? In what condition is the interior? Again, it could be worked any number of ways, but I'm guessing that there is at least a jotted note on this. P.S. Have they got rocket fins, 1950s 'Conquest of Space' fashion? ----- //718 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff adds his opinion on the new religions thread ] [ (Message 659). ] Regarding someone with a new religion who decides that he must 'witness to the multitudes': <> No, he wouldn't. Instant martyr. I'm in South Carolina, and I knew some people who at the time were planning a little visit to Jerry Falwell's Capitol Building/church headquarters. It might be thought that they'd seen a few too many episodes of 'Mission Impossible,' but they had the minivan, the grey coveralls, and this little bottle of LSD... The plan was simple-- get in posing as electricians while nothing is going on, paint the podium liberally with this colorless, odorless fluid, and leave. That's all. Under the hot klieg lights, sweaty palms rub the edges of the podium... and about ten minutes into his 'sermon,' he starts making less and less sense-- gets more and more vehement in the exposition of non-sequiturs and utter gibberish... It could be a good five, ten minutes before someone thinks to shut it off. In an hour or so he'd be himself again, no ill effects... but it would all be over. He would be finished. For the record, they decided against the attempt. But if they'd had a SPELL to do the same thing, from a distance, now... Arthur Clarke once wrote, "How long would Adolph Hitler have lasted if every hour of the day and night a little voice was whispering in his ear? Or a constant tone, loud enough to banish sleep?" Oh, no, -killing- him would be the last thing they'd do. [Moderator's Note: I doubt they would have had to. Making the person Nakome ] [ would probably be all that is necessary (and threaten the ] [ same to potential worshippers). ] G. ----- //719 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff writes about some interesting methods of naval] [ protection and propulsion (actually they would probably ] [ apply to land based situations as well). ] Can a magically powered equivalent of a cannon be built to work more economically than a mage at sea throwing about the same amount of force the same distance ? Can you believe I haven't touched cannabis sativa in years ? I've never dared do this in a game, but years ago I figured that if you conjured up a powerful but none-too-swift Fire Elemental and confined him within a chamber submerged in a cauldron, you would have yourself a 'thaumaturgical steam engine.' You'd certainly have the makings of a great steam cannon, too-- after a few disastrous experiments. One of the cleverest things about Tekumel is this whole 'absence of metals' thing. Not only does it utterly preclude any sort of yawn-Tolkien or rosy-colored European knockoffs, it also produces interesting consequences in its own right. Chlen hide may be harder than bronze, but 'hardness' is its only resemblance to metal-- it won't hold fire, and it won't conduct electricity. Even if a Reformation did lead to a scientific, 'let's find out' view of the world, Tekumel would never produce a Benjamin Franklin-- though it might produce a Newton. G. ----- //720 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff responds to George's biology questions. ] "I'm hoping to write some contributions of my own (I'm a biologist, and enjoy thinking about alien ecologies), but I don't want to overlap or infringe on others' efforts." Doc, you just established better bona fides than anyone from whom you're likely to hear. Seems to me, you ought to be the one -establishing- the 'official info.' I would only point out that considering how multi-legged all the various sentient species are, virtually every mammalian form encountered ought to have at least six. (Only we would have brought four-legged species, dogs &c.) I don't recall as I sit here if any such thing has been developed, but you must have a gasbag creature with dangling tentacles. It's an SF staple since the 1930s. Usually it produces hydrogen through an enzymatic process and anchors itself to trees in high winds. [Moderator's Note: Don't Kayi already count as that? ] G. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.