These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 16 451: Mitlanyal Update 452: More Cannibalism 453: History of Ghaton 454: Beast Without a Tail 455: Tekumel Con Update 456: More Tekumel Con 457: More Tekumel Con 458: Theological Questions 459: Miscellaneous Questions on Magic 460: Shunned Ones 461: Spirit-Soul and Special Note 462: Tekumel Con Status: Cancelled 463: Mental Illness in Tsolyanu 464: Hluss and Ssu 465: Cult of Hrsh 466: Moons of Tekumel 467: More on Mental Illness 468: More on Mental Illness 469: Archery on Tekumel 470: More on Hrsh 471: Heroes of the Age 472: The Kaija (and Other) Protectorates 473: Heroes of the Age Reply 474: More Heroes of the Age 475: Tsolyani Nosferatu 476: More Moons of Tekumel 477: Tsolyani Language List 478: Ndalu Clan Info/History 479: Tsolyani Nosferatu Reply 480: Hero of the Age Adventure ********************************************** //451 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti responds to the question about Mitlanyal. ] >Is any of this info likely to be covered in >_Mitlanyal_, or is TOME likely to consider it too risque/over-the-top? >(Considering the reputation FRPGs have in some quarters of society, I would >understand their concern -- even though I feel it is unfounded.) > >[Moderator's Note: Bob will have to speak to this. What do you say, Bob? ] The sections about cannibalism and also about sexuality (some of which overlap) (is that a pun?) have already been written into Mitlanyal. As an update, all _content_ has now been incorporated into Mitlanyal. The book consists of twenty-four chapters: four introductory chapters (three of which are rather small, one-page or so), and one chapter for each deity. Of these, the four introductory chapters have been finished, as have Hnalla, Dra, and Avanthe. By finished I mean finished-finished -- no further reformatting or changes will be made prior to publication, save for typographical errors. Bob Alberti ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //452 [Moderator's Note: The Professor responds to other mentions of cannibalism.] >David writes... >Expanding on this theme, I can recall other mentions of cannibalism in the >Five Empires: > >1) In "A Merchant's Tale" (in JTA #2 I think) the narrator is offered a >tidbit of Yan Koryani heart by his new Nlyss friends. Yes, this is true. It is aberrant, however, and not a regular part of Pijjenani society. >2) The rituals Tsa'avtulgu's patron Black Qarqa are said to encompass >homophagy. This is absolutely true. Tsa'avtulgu is a very nasty piece of work. Only one player party has ever visited there, and they got out at the first opportunity. I don't recall if any of my current players were in that adventure or not, but if so, they may want to comment. >3) In "Flamsong" Prince Ridek and his fellow POWs fear being fed to the >Sarku worshipping troops beseiging Pu'er. (With Dhich'une now emporer is >this likely to become standard field rations for the Tsolyani army?) This was the captives' fear, not necessarily the reality. The siege of Pu'er was *very* aberrant, even for Sarku devotees. Dhich'une and the High Command had the general impaled who brought out the Undead there. The Undead were swiftly boxed up and shipped off to the City of Sarku, and now everybody denies everything. In fact, Dhich'une has been rather obedient to Tsolyani laws and customs, although the invasion force that broke into the cellars of Avanthar last year were repelled by chaps who did not seem to enjoy the light of day... >On another subject, I got Hammerton's "Wonders of the Past" this evening >through inter library loan. Though a bit out of date in spots (e.g. >Piltdown Man mentioned other than as a hoax) overall its great! Thanks >again for pointing it out. It is indeed a fun old set of books! >Paul Writes... >I read the posting about cannibalism on Tekumel with great interest. >Although the topic is rather (OK, very) grisly, there is something >fascinating about it. I have occasionally used cannibalism in some of my >adventures, and I think it is often considered a mark of a "barbaric" >culture. There are penty of "barbaric" cultures that never employed cannibalism, however: the Norse, for example. There are "pacifistic" cultures and "warlike" cultures where cannibalism was used from time to time, almost always for ritualistic purposes and not for gustatory enjoyment! >I seem to recall that cannibalism (as well as necrophilia!) is a part of the >cult practices of Black Qarqa in Salarvya. Yes, see above. >Am I wrong in assuming that at >least one of the Shadow Gods of Livyanu also incorporates this practice into >their ritual (assuming that it may only pertain to a specific aspect as with >Chiteng and Hrihayal)? Not that any Livyani will admit. >Is any of this info likely to be covered in _Mitlanyal_. I understand [it] >does not cover anything but the Tsolyani deities anyway Bob Alberti has had rather a hard time ferreting out the inner workings of the Livyani sects. They are not forthcoming about their beliefs and practices, and he may have to describe only what he can see "over the top of the wall," as the Livyani put it. His first volume (over 300 pages) is almost done now, and it covers only the Tsolyani deities, practices, etc. [Moderator's Note: Bob gave a status report in the last message. ] >or is TOME likely to consider it too risque/over-the-top? >(Considering the reputation FRPGs have in some quarters of society, I would >understand their concern -- even though I feel it is unfounded.) This is probable. In spite of some very chaste language, "Mitlanyal" may not be acceptable to the Puritans out there. Tome will have to decide whether it wants to print the book or let Bob find other funding. Phil ----- //453 [Moderator's Note: Peter Bismire asks about the history of Ghaton. ] >While we've seen the language, social mores and clothing of Ghaton covered >I'm intrigued to know a little more about its history. Ghaton appears to have been a splinter state, breaking off quite early from the Empire of the Dragon Warriors (the Flame-worshipping tribesmen from the far northwest). During Bednalljan times there is little information, except that the region was "pacified" by one of the later Emperors. The Engsvanyali conquered Ghaton and strove to turn it into a province where the deities of Pavar would be worshipped -- and where the social mores would be more in line with those of the Engsvanyali. The Ghatoni did not agree, apparently, and their society became even more insular and hostile to the distant Priestkings. The place was conquered and reduced almost to abject slavery and poverty by one of the Empresses (I think it was Tratikante, but I'd better check). The Ghatoni then retreated into their mountain fastnesses and refused to pay taxes, send recruits to the legions, or acknowledge any other obligation to the Engsvanyali. The latter garrisoned Ghaton City, built a poor-quality version of a Sakbe road that went along the coast, north and around to Mu'ugalayva and to N'luss. This has since fallen into complete ruin. The Ghatoni attitude towards women does not seem to stem directly from their revolt against the Engsvanyali (whose employment of women in high posts is proverbial). They seem to have had this same mind-set since Bednalljan times, at least, and their tribal laws reinforce it. They are now cut off by their odd mores, quite aberrant, and thoroughly insular. >I presume that it was a fairly standard province during Engsvan hla Ganga >(thin ice I know :)) and developed in isolation during the Time of No Kings >similarly to Lorun matriarchy. Is this right? During the Time of No Kings, the Ghatoni did very little that is now known. They maintained their hostility to the matriarchal Yan Koryani throughout the early centuries of the Second Imperium but softened enough to send a small contingent of troops (and their specially trained Serudla!) to aid the Baron during the recent conflict with Tsolyanu -- either that or join the Mu'ugalavyani, whom they also despise, or the Tsolyani, whom they see as just another Engsvanyali offshoot. They are indeed a strange society. >Am I also correct that the Ghatoni are themselves incredibly insular >allowing foreign (male) merchants in but not venturing out themselves lest >their sensibilities be offended? Here you are correct, except that occasional delegations and mercantile emissaries do come out, staying aloof and dealing strictly with business, then returing. Very few Ghatoni ever seem to switch over to Tsolyani attitudes, although they do seem occasionally to study their neighbours. Regards, Phil ----- //454 [Moderator's Note: The Professor answers Delbert's questions and comments ] [ on his campaign idea. ] >Do you know any information about The Ruins of N'gala, (near Jakalla)? The place used to be on dry land before Ganga sank and left the ruins a swamp. It is said that Queen Nayari of the Bednalljan Dynasty used to disport herself there, and that there were pleasures and palaces and beautiful things aplenty. Now all of this is gone, and the swamps have taken over. There is a little dry land upon which some of the taller buildings still stand, but most of the old city is now under 10 feet or so of very dangerous water (many critters, diseases, molds, blights, and icky things). It is hard to reach, even though Jakalla is not far away: the water is too shallow for most ships, and small boats have a way of disappearing in the shadowy, foggy jungles. Still we have had parties across there, exploring. Not all of them returned. >Do you know anything about "He Who Has No Tail"? >I was thinking to have an adventure based on "He Who Has No Tail". >The original rule book said "the curious city of Hmakuyal (hex >3708) where dwells He Who Has No Tail, the subject of many ancient >and terrible legends;" Hmakuyal is really much better known and populated than Ngala. The priesthood of Ksarul occupies Hmakuyal, and there are shrines, hostels for pilgrims, and all sorts of Ksarul-oriented businesses there (amulet-makers, sellers of religious documents, artists and sculptors, makers of sacrificial offering statues, and lots of others). The city is a semicircular volcanic crater, and most of the important shrines are buried in caverns beneath the crater walls, while the hostels, etc. occupy the centre of the crater floor. Inside one of the oldest and deepest shrines, it is said, the beast Without a Tail accepts sacrifices and offerings. See the "Book of Ebon Bindings." >>Seems like he/she/it formed the Milumanayanan Desert and might've had >>something to do with Hrugga and the Egg of the World. The legends don't say that the Beast had anything to do with the Desert -- that came about when Ganga sank, and the low-lying central plains of what is now Yan Kor rose. The Beast is indeed found in the Legend of Hrugga, though not in direct connection with the Egg of the World. >The way it would start is by one of the players eating a basketball >looking jello like fruit/egg. Once it's cut anyone who smells it >can't keep from tasting it or stop eating it once they start. Hmm. Never saw one of those... You're welcome to introduce it as a "special," though. >(The smell of a damaged egg has to be rolled against or the >victim will have to have a taste. Once it's cut/damaged anyone who >smells it can't keep from eating it, unless they are 'final stage'.) >This would cause the eater to be transformed into a tadpole looking >creature. At this point if they 'Remove Curse' they can regain >their form. Otherwise the person has an addiction that requires >them to eat some of an egg [this particular kind of egg, or just any old egg?] >at least once a month and even with >remove curse they are unable to talk about anything having to do >with "HWHNT". This is a very strong mind bar. Afterwards some robed >priests come to 'transport' them to the Temple of He Who Has No >Tail. At the temple the player is dumped into one of the many canals >within the temple complex. The smell of more eggs will draw them >into the main pool. After they eat another entire egg they will regrow arms. I don't recall many canals or pools of any size in Hmakuyal. ??? The place is a little arid, though not really desert. Try just subterranean tunnels in the crater wall. >At this main pool is "He Who Has No Tail". At random times once >a week the statue of "HWHNT" will fill with "HWHNT"s spirit and it >will leap into the pool and eat a worshiper. Try having the Beast chase a worshipper round and round in one of the labyrinthine tunnels that surround the central shrine. This is going to surprise a lot of priests there, since their idea of a good ritual is pretty solemn and dark and rather awesome. They'll be really shocked and amused to see some poor sacrifice come larruping by, fleeing the Beast! But it's a sort of fun idea. >After eating a >worshiper "HWHNT" will lay more eggs and return to statue form. >After an entire third egg is eaten the player will regrow legs. >During this time they can't resist the smell of the eggs. After the >fourth egg they lose their tail and can leave the temple. The >player still has the addiction that requires them to eat an egg at >least once a month and they are still unable to talk about anything >having to do with "HWHNT". This is a very very strong mind bar. If >they don't recruit new 'worshipers' then when they go back to eat an >egg they will eventually be caught and eaten themselves. The more >worshipers there are the less chance you will be the one eaten >however, the less eggs will be available to be eaten. If an egg is >not eaten the person will lose a hit point a week permanently until >an egg is eaten, at which time they will heal normally. >The final stage victim can transport back into the main pool at any >time, from any distance, while bringing anything mansized or less >that is not metal. All sounds a bit elaborate, but if the referee sets the stage and plays it right, it ought to be fun. >[Moderator's Note: Once a month seems a bit excessive to me. Not at all. *I* personally eat at least one egg a week. [Moderator's Note: Yes, so do I, but we don't eat basketball sized ones! ] >"He Who Has No Tail" can't be harmed on this plane! That is correct. >This idea would lock players into a plot that would drive them throughout the >game. I'm not sure the ability to always transport to the temple >would make them feel better. But, always having a way to bailout of >a bad situation could be very valuable. Give it a try and see how your players enjoy it. Some players do not like being "locked" into an adventure, but I do this to my group(s) all the time. It's sometimes the only way to get people to play actively. As long as the pressures are not too excessive and too unpleasant, this sort of adventure can be very enjoyable. >As long as HWHNT ain't at home. >So don't take fruit from a stranger! >Delbert Not me! Not unless it's washed in disinfectant first! Regards, Phil ----- //455 [Moderator's Note: More Con info from David Cheng. ] An update on Tekumel-Con progress: While we do not yet have enough events to publish a pre-registration booklet, the con is still on. Some benefactors have come forward and offered to cover the extra cost if we have to cancel at some point in the future. Please, use this extra time that these generous folks have bought for us all! If you have any interest in running an event for the con, please submit a description to me as soon as possible. We are now shooting to publish and mail the pre-registration booklet at the end of April. Please get your events to me by the April 15th so this can happen. Email me if you'd like an email version of the Event Description form. Thanks, *David Cheng 313 East 85th Street #2C New York, NY 10028 (212) 472-7752 cheng@io.com Tekumel-Con will be held at the Radisson South Hotel, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, on August 29-31, 1997. //456 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti lets us know his plans for the Tekumel Con. ] [ He suggests that others join him in submitting and run- ] [ ning events for the con. ] Hello everyone, I'm back from the hinterlands of unemployment, having today accepted a new position that pays a lot more than my last position. For the convention I sent in two entries: a serious game of Tsolyani intrigue I called "Mitlanyal: The Game," and a comical romp through the Jakallan underworld with co-GM Keith Dalluhn called "Jakalla the Wild." Everyone on the list should consider signing up, and writing an encouraging letter to David Cheng (cheng@io.com) along the way! Bob Alberti "The Good and Great Must Ever Shun alberti@freenet.msp.mn.us That Reckless and Abandoned One http://freenet.msp.mn.us/~alberti Who Stoops to Perpetrate a Pun" Twenty Years on the Net, 1976-1996. Lewis Carroll, 'The Three Voices' -- //457 [Moderator's Note: Sorry for the quiet times. I'll be firing out four ] [ messages here, and have 4 items to send to the Prof. ] [ Joe Saul and Brett Slocum their two bits to the Tekumel] [ Con Schedule. ] Joe Saul writes... Let me add my voice to the clamor; I've agreed to run three games at TekumelCon, despite the fact that I never, ever, schedule anything this far in advance. (Not being as efficient as Bob, I don't have titles for them yet, but they will all be role-playing events, and I plan on at least one being a free-form.) I've also volunteered to moderate two seminars -- one on Tsolyani law, and one on [topic deleted by the OAL]. (The second one is kind of a surprise.) Joe Saul Brett Slocum writes... I know this is late, but I'm having computer trouble and haven't had email for 2.5 weeks, and was on vacation. I'll be running a GURPS Tekumel adventure. I'll send the event notice soon. (I thought I already had.) I could alsoo run anything else you need help with: moderating a panel, participating in a panel., some other thing that needs doing. Brett Slocum -- //458 [Moderator's Note: Jim Chapin asks about the five parts of our being ] [ and how those parts are affected by different ] [ translations. ] This is one of those questions to which there is no fixed answer. The Sarku priests give a reply directly contrary to that of the Belkhanu theologians, etc. >The source books hold that "the Engsvanyali theologians state that every >living entity consists of five parts or "selves," each of which has a >separate identity and a certain degree of independence from the rest." >Later on they state that "Sarku focusses upon the Mind here in this Plane, >and lays no claim upon the Spirit-Soul." >The sources state further that, upon death, the Shadow-Self dies, the Mind >hovers near the body, the Pedhetl returns to the sea of force, and the >Spirit-Soul journeys on to the Isles of the Excellent Dead. >My question is, perhaps, obvious. If a Sarku worshipper, or, for that >matter, anyone else, is revived as an Undead, what happens to the "unclaimed" >Spirit-Soul? Does it continue upon its journey? Lord Sarku is said to send these spirit-souls directly on their journey to the Isles of Teretane. The spirit-soul no longer plays a part in the intellect's existence. These portions of the total being are thus separated forever. Some Sarku priests say that "disconnected" spirit-souls wander forever, others have it that they live on for awhile and then perish. If you revive an entity as Undead, the unneeded parts then apparently go their way. All of this is rather murky and fraught with controversy between the various sects and temples. >More practically, could you converse with that Spirit-Soul while the >"actual" person is walking around with its Mind in its Body? Or is a >Sarku worshipper like a Gloranthan vampire, someone who has sacrificed his >"immortal soul" in return for unlife in "this" existence? Theoretically you cannot contact a spirit-soul who has gone away on the Journey. The spirit-soul is now unimportant to the person, who focusses upon the existence of the Intellect. I have no idea what a "Gloranthan vampire" is. What part of Tekumel do they inhabit? >A related question: do demons that "eat your soul" eat all 4 parts of it >(not to mention the body, usually!)? In other words, if you end up in the >"wrong pl ace" are you removed forever from the journeys of the soul? That >seems a bit overwhelming, even for the great Demons. Similarly, when some >spell or voyage sends you into the Unending Grey, does that mean that "all" >of your soul is out there? The Great Demons tend to consume the spirit-soul, as well as the body and the Intellect. The shadow-self is said to die on its own, when it is separated from the other parts. The Pedhetl is eaten to provide energy and substance to the Demon. The Unending Grey takes away the whole package: all of the parts! Regards, Phil ----- //459 [Moderator's Note: Dermot Bolton asks about Psychic vs Ritual magic, and how] [ "wild" sorcerors are handled in the Five Empires. ] This is a difficult question since the basis for Tekumelani sorcery is rather different from Terran (particularly European) sorcery. >Psychic powers >Something that has puzzled me for some time about Tekumel magic and powers >is the realtionship between 'magic' and natural psychic talent. Ritual >magic has much more to do with speech, and bodily movement and can be >learned by people with a low(ish) psychic talent. Psychic sorcery seems to >be concerned with channeling other planar energies with the power of the >mind alone. Both ritual maic and psychic magic have to do with establishing "gestalts" or images of the Planes Beyond, then setting up conduits through which power can flow from those Planes into Tekumel's, then moulding that power into substance and/or energy according to ancient models. Psychic magic works by using templates within the mind alone; ritual magic eases the way with objects, vocables, rituals, etc. Both really do the same thing, but ritual magic requires more equipment. >Many of the spells available for psychic sorcerers equate to perceived >mental or psionic powers in our world. I am quite happy to accept that many >psychic sorcs are 'spotted' for their potential at a young age and trained >in the temple. Ages of ritual and tradition mean their minds are trained to >work in a certain way that control their powers. This would explain the >idea behind spells. What is a "sorc?" Sort of an "orc?" :-) >The first question is do psychic sorcs channel other planar energies like >ritual sorcs or do they use their own power? They channel Other Planar energy by setting up pictures of the Other Planar landscape in their minds, then setting up connectors and conduits. This is done automatically by the spells of ritual magic. >What happens to an individual that is not taken for formal training at a >temple but manages to develop powers on their own accord? Does this happen >in the five empires or abroad? In barbarian lands one would expect them to >be shamen like figures in small communities. In Tsolyanu I could see a >number of 'spoon benders' with minor talents performing parlour tricks and >such like. But what of the rare individuals that slip through the net and >become powerful psionics. What would happen to them, would the lack of >formal training mean that they could lose control? Films such as carrie and >the medusa touch come to mind and years of reading comics like 2000ad make >me wonder. Such individuals occur rarely. It is possible that in remote areas they may be overlooked, but magic causes "waves" on the psychic landscape, and they are usually detected at young ages when they accidentally contact their psychic power sources in an undisciplined way. The priests then arrive and confiscate the kid, usually paying the parents Shamtla for him/her. In truly dangerous cases, when the psychic talent is really undisciplined and awesome, the little rascal may be "offed" by sorcerers of considerable status. This is not common, since most such "wild talent" is low-level (at the stage of spoon-bending), and most parents are happy to see their young sprout enrolled in a prestigious temple school where the rigorous training soon turns him/her into a well-disciplined practitioner. Regards, Phil >From blueroom@spectre.prin.edu Sat Apr 12 10:52:14 1997 Received: from spectre.prin.edu by us.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.2) with ESMTP id KAA20637; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 10:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from blueroom@localhost) by spectre.prin.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24318 for jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu; Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:52:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:52:13 -0500 (CDT) From: The Blue Room Mailing List Message-Id: <199704121452.JAA24318@spectre.prin.edu> To: jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu Subject: Message 459: Miscellaneous Questions on Magic Status: RO X-Status: [Moderator's Note: Dermot Bolton asks about Psychic vs Ritual magic, and how] [ "wild" sorcerors are handled in the Five Empires. ] This is a difficult question since the basis for Tekumelani sorcery is rather different from Terran (particularly European) sorcery. >Psychic powers >Something that has puzzled me for some time about Tekumel magic and powers >is the realtionship between 'magic' and natural psychic talent. Ritual >magic has much more to do with speech, and bodily movement and can be >learned by people with a low(ish) psychic talent. Psychic sorcery seems to >be concerned with channeling other planar energies with the power of the >mind alone. Both ritual maic and psychic magic have to do with establishing "gestalts" or images of the Planes Beyond, then setting up conduits through which power can flow from those Planes into Tekumel's, then moulding that power into substance and/or energy according to ancient models. Psychic magic works by using templates within the mind alone; ritual magic eases the way with objects, vocables, rituals, etc. Both really do the same thing, but ritual magic requires more equipment. >Many of the spells available for psychic sorcerers equate to perceived >mental or psionic powers in our world. I am quite happy to accept that many >psychic sorcs are 'spotted' for their potential at a young age and trained >in the temple. Ages of ritual and tradition mean their minds are trained to >work in a certain way that control their powers. This would explain the >idea behind spells. What is a "sorc?" Sort of an "orc?" :-) >The first question is do psychic sorcs channel other planar energies like >ritual sorcs or do they use their own power? They channel Other Planar energy by setting up pictures of the Other Planar landscape in their minds, then setting up connectors and conduits. This is done automatically by the spells of ritual magic. >What happens to an individual that is not taken for formal training at a >temple but manages to develop powers on their own accord? Does this happen >in the five empires or abroad? In barbarian lands one would expect them to >be shamen like figures in small communities. In Tsolyanu I could see a >number of 'spoon benders' with minor talents performing parlour tricks and >such like. But what of the rare individuals that slip through the net and >become powerful psionics. What would happen to them, would the lack of >formal training mean that they could lose control? Films such as carrie and >the medusa touch come to mind and years of reading comics like 2000ad make >me wonder. Such individuals occur rarely. It is possible that in remote areas they may be overlooked, but magic causes "waves" on the psychic landscape, and they are usually detected at young ages when they accidentally contact their psychic power sources in an undisciplined way. The priests then arrive and confiscate the kid, usually paying the parents Shamtla for him/her. In truly dangerous cases, when the psychic talent is really undisciplined and awesome, the little rascal may be "offed" by sorcerers of considerable status. This is not common, since most such "wild talent" is low-level (at the stage of spoon-bending), and most parents are happy to see their young sprout enrolled in a prestigious temple school where the rigorous training soon turns him/her into a well-disciplined practitioner. Regards, Phil //460 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff asks about the Shunned Ones. ] This question, like some of those previously put forward, demands more "knowledge" than I really have. It is one of those "tell us about the political parties in Ssuyal" questions, when I have always stated that I myself know nothing beyond what I can learn about Tekumel from Tekumelani informants. It's like the wargamer who becomes annoyed by the fact that I cannot tell where a certain legion is, who is its general, how many troops it has, or whom it is supporting currently. All of these sorts of questions demand a god-like overview (the "Wargamer's Inimitable Eye"). I see Tekumel as a very real place, with inconsistencies, deceptions, etc. that I myself cannot solve. It's more fun. >I would ask similar questions about the Shunned Ones. They've always >intrigued me, living as they do in sealed, domed cities. Why do they ever >leave >those cities? The Yan Koryani who have kept an eye on the Shunned Ones for generations say that, as far as can be known, the Shunned Ones need various metals and chemicals, plus fuel cells and small powered machines. They do not send out parties often, but they do make long and rather daring trips by the tubeway cars. They do not use the Patterns and the Nexus Points as often. >For that matter, are those in fact the -same- cities, existing for >millenia? We think so. >Could they still build new ones, if they needed to? Have they ever >lost a city to structural failure of its dome? Yes. There is a rather small, shattered dome in hex 5928 of the old Zocchi map. There is also the "walled ruin" in hex 6129, which is assumed -- and only assumed -- to be of Shunned Ones origin. Entering these places requires existing on your own in that barren, blasted landscape for longer than most people can stand. The Shunned Ones may have detection devices, too, because they almost always seem to appear to challenge any "visitors." Only one or two successful "visits" have ever made it back... >I've never felt them to be 'hostile' in the same league as the Ssu and >the Hluss-- they're just edgy, and understandably so. Prickly, bristling >defensiveness is literally 'a matter of life and breath...' Okay. Next time *YOU* go talk to them! They tend to attack first and converse later. They may not be innately, ethically, or whatever hostile, but those who attempt to chat with them end up just as dead. Racial paranoia? Maybe we smell bad to them? Regards, Phil ----- //461 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff gives his spin on the Spirit-Soul topic, and] [ also expresses an interesting view on longevity on ] [ Tekumel. ] [ Special Note: I am off this morning to Minneapolis for a second ] [ bout of visiting with the Professor, and tinkering with his ] [ computer. More of a socail visit this time, but I did print out the] [ Sourcebook and we will go over what the final formatting will look ] [ like. I won't be back until 4/21 in the afternoon. Have a good ] [ weekend everyone. Chris ] Legend: >> Jim Chapin's original message > Professor Barker's reply Gordon's Comments >>More practically, could you converse with that Spirit-Soul while the >>"actual" person is walking around with its Mind in its Body? Or is a >>Sarku worshipper like a Gloranthan vampire, someone who has sacrificed his >>"immortal soul" in return for unlife in "this" existence? >Theoretically you cannot contact a spirit-soul who has gone away on the >Journey. The spirit-soul is now unimportant to the person, who focusses >upon the existence of the Intellect. >I have no idea what a "Gloranthan vampire" is. What part of Tekumel do >they inhabit? I don't, actually, think I'm the first, nor certainly the only one, to reply to that, if Phil were interested, but Mr Chapin was referring to the 'Runequest' gaming system and its associated world, Glorantha, which has its own particular 'take' on vampires. I'd have to dig it out of its storage box to be more specific, but it's pretty much what he said; they reflected the traditional 'damned' legends within their own cultural/religious framework fairly adroitly. (Personally, I've always seen a certain merit to being a vampire on Tekumel; in a culture where nothing really COUNTS for much until it's reached it's first thousand years of age, 'three score and ten' is just may-fly league. If'n you ain't got -serious- longevity, fergit it.) G J N -- //462 [Moderator's Note: David Cheng gives us the latest, and last on the Tekumel ] [ con. It looks like it won't be happening. I'm very ] [ sorry to hear this. Thanks for all the work/time/money ] [ that you spent on this. ] I am very sorry to announce that Tekumel-Con is cancelled. Professor Barker has recently told us that he is no longer able to commit to attending, for personal reasons. Given that he was our single and most important Guest of Honor, we have to be realistic about how many potential attendees we would lose given this turn of events. Since our expected attendance was never high to begin with, we have decided to cut our losses and cancel the convention. Please note, however, that this was not an all-or-nothing decision. Progress toward the con never really achieved "good momentum": the response to the postcard survey was disappointing; the number of GM volunteers was low; the number of events submitted, even after an emergency appeal, was too low. This is not to say that certain individuals lacked enthusiasm. We appreciate the volunteers who came forward and offered to run events all weekend. Unfortunately, there were just too few of you to carry the con, and not enough people offered to run just one or two. It was our (stated) intention that Tekumel-Con would be an event worth planning a whole vacation around. Some of you have contacted me to say you were doing just this. Our most sincere apologies go out to you. We hope this cancellation will not cost you too much money or otherwise taint your other vacation plans. News of the cancellation will only be spread electronically. Please help us out by informing anyone not online that might have been planning to attend. Please do not email me to ask about specific con issues, especially as they relate to Professor Barker. Any such emails will not be answered. If any of you would like to try to organize your own Tekumel-Con at some time in the future, please be sure to contact me. I will be happy to hand over to you the work I've done so far. Again, our apologies to those of you who were truly supportive. * David Cheng Tekumel-Con Chair cheng@io.com //463 [Moderator's Note: Robin Jones asks about Tsolyani attitudes to Mental Ill-] [ ness and how the mentally ill are treated. ] [Moderator's Note: Sorry about the lack of traffic. It has been a very busy] [ time at work and my personal life is not much quieter. I] [ am renewing my pledge to spend at least 1 hour a day on ] [ list related mailings from now on. This includes new ] [ messages, bringing new people up to date, etc. If there ] [ isn't any traffic, or questions to be answered, I'll work] [ on articles/netbooks or the problems some have reported ] [ with the pictures on the ftp site. (I now have Photoshop ] [ on my home computer.) So, again, accept my apologies for] [ the sorry job I have done for the last few months, and ] [ hopefully I can follow through on this promise. ] >I would like to know more about the Tsolyanu attitude to mental illness. >Given the broad variety of /acceptable/ behaviour on Tekumel, what would >mark the border between eccentricity and madness? What methods of >evaluation and treatment are available to noble characters? If one is >insulted by a madman would challenging him to a duel be considered a >/noble/ action? >These questions may seem frivolous but I can assure you that they are >frighteningly relevant to me at the moment (having been insulted by a >clan-cousin of dubious mental stability). Suggestions please. Mental illness is usually kept within the household of the clan to which the patient belongs. Irrational behaviour is clearly different from culturally patterned behaviour: a man who takes a knife and goes up and down a street stabbing passersby is obviously different from one who has a hair-trigger temper and go about slitting gullets of those who offend him. The former would be automatically imprisoned by the city guards (road guards, OAL -- whoever), and if his clan did not intervene and pay Shamtla, he would probably be offed in some simple and not very painful fashion. The latter person might be sued for Shamtla by his victims' relations, who might also ask for the death penalty. Really raving mental illness gets the patient incarcerated in a room somewhere in his clanhouse, usually dark and austere but not cruel. If he has to be restrained, this is done with as much kindness as possible -- after all, the patient is a clan brother. It is hard to mark the borderline between eccentricity and madness. It partially depends on whether the patient has more political/social clout than the victim! A high-clan, high-status person could simply kill a low-clan, low-status madman and pay a little Shamtla. Reversed, the situation would be different. The borderline between madness and eccentricity thus lies pretty much in the eye of the beholder. A harmless madman may be free to wander about, begging, haranguing, performing antisocial acts, etc. followed by gangs of children who pelt him with excrement, dead rodents, and other delights. I remember the case of Elara hiVriddi's brother, whose nickname was Daju (nobody ever recalled his real name). He wandered around Purdimal, stark naked, begging fruit peels from the passersby. I have since lost track of him -- he may be dead now. If you suspect that a person's motivations stem from mental illness, rather than from reasonable anger, etc., you can approach that person's clan and see if they are aware of him. They may then be willing to take action and incarcerate him, rather than get into an inter-clan squabble. Regards, Phil ----- //464 [Moderator's Note: Ray Gillham asks some more about the Hluss and Ssu. ] >Further to the posting about the Enemies of Man, I'm wondering if >there is a biological reason why they scare the bejesus out of >humankind, as well as their innate alieness giving people the >willies; both the Hluss and the Ssu (and indeed the Shunned Ones) >emit noxious vapours, discernable to humans at some distance; perhaps >this is part of some chemical emission that acts on human (and other) >brains creating a sense of fear and panic? I'm not qualified to speak >on this but don't some insects have similar mood-altering >capabilities that they use on rival insects? The fear of the >inimicals is easy to recreates in game terms (SAN from CoC, Fear from >Pendragon et al) but I just wonder if there is a more holistic >explanation. There may be a smell component to the fear engendered by the Ssu and he Shunned Ones. Quite possible. I have had human players react to a sprinkling of cinnamon as though they had been stabbed -- just a carry-over from the game. I don't doubt that the dreadful sulphur (plus other unpleasant ingredients) smell of the Shunned Ones' cities would make anybody cough, choke, and feel terror. Odour and possible emissions of chemicals that transmit fear are thus a good possibility. >PS. EPT says that the Shunned Ones are on old race even by Ssu >standards; can this be elaborated on? Are the Shunned Ones truly >Tekumel's oldest race, and are they indigenous or alien to the planet? The appearance of the Shunned Ones is supposed to go back to pre-human times. How this is known is problematic, but it is part of the corpus of legends about these creatures: "many ages older than the Ssu" is an epithet for them. In point of fact, they may very well have arrived and settled remote regions of the planet while the Ssu and the Hluss inhabited other locales. Neither the Ssu nor the Hluss would have particularly wanted the areas preferred by the Shunned Ones, and neither race is especially given to exploration or to the acquisition of geographic knowledge, The Shunned Ones might thus have gone undetected -- or just ignored -- for millennia. Regards, Phil ----- //465 [Moderator's Note: David Allan asks about the relationships between the ] [ worshippers of Hrsh. ] >How did two groups as different as the rulers of Mu'uglavya and the half >human Fungus Eaters become coreligionists in the seemigly very exclusive >cult of Hrsh? Hrsh is a state cult deity; his worship contains all sorts of elements and strands. The Mu'ugalavyani have built him into a semi-copy of Vimuhla, who they can't fully and wholeheartedly accept because Vimuhla is part of a *foreign* pantheon (Pavar -- who lived in Ganga, in what is now Tsolyanu). Hrsh's sect includes simple doctrines for uneducated folk (the Fungus Eaters) and exceedingly sophisticated theology for the scholars in Ssa'atis. Rather like the tribal people of India, who pour milk over a stone painted red: Siva, in a field to ensure crop fertility, versus the pedantic and subtle Brahmans of Benares. These two extremes lie only a few miles from one another. Philosophical Hindu scholars state that the polytheism of the temples can be reduced to a trinity (Siva, Vishnu, and Brahma) and thence to One. The priests of Hrsh might well say something similar, although they have never had to rationalise or apologise for their beliefs to a colonial power (as the people of India did for years to the British and now to the combined influences of the West). One might also compare the snake-handlers and other variant Christian sects in this country to the educated preachers in college divinity schools. On Tekumel, social differences exist that may not make sense at first glance, but look at the history and other factors. Regards, Phil ----- //466 From: GRANDIDGE John Subject: Moons and indexes >As to the moons, am I right in thinking that . . . >Tekumel has 2 moons, Kashi (smaller as seen from Tekumel, and red) and >Gayel (light green). If Kashi has an orbit of 30 days, and Gayel of 15, >then they are always in sync. Months have 30 days. So in a particular >year, Kashi will be full on the same day of each month. (And then the >intercallary days will reset the day on which Kashi is full for the next >year. For example, If Kashi is full on the 4th day of every month one >year, it will be full on intercallary day 4 (of 5), and then on the 29th >of each month in the following year.) I am not up on orbits and astronomy, so my answers to Mr. Grandidge may be off by a country mile! He is correct about the two moons, big Gayel and smaller Kashi, about their colours (green, red), about their orbits. There does seem to be some slight difference between the perfect 30-day and 15-day orbits stated in Tekumelani texts, however. I do not think that these moons lie exactly on the plane of the ecliptic since Kashi appears to be several degrees higher in the sky, right above Gayel, and one moon elipsing the other is something I have never seen -- though it may occur. Kashi "rushes past" like the bright Flame," to quote from the Engsvanyali poet Yetil, while Gayel "glides with slow and slumberous grace, as befits Lady Dlamelish." >Also, for each phase of Kashi, there will be a corresponding phase of Gayel, >forever. So I wonder if Kashi and Gayel are full together, or what phase Gayel >is in when Kashi is full. >(Presumably the orbits of one or both moons are a little offset from the >equatorial plane, otherwise Gayel will eclipse Kashi whenever it is full.) >I guess the orbital periods could be precisely in sync because the Tekumel >system may have been fiddled about with during terraforming. >If the obital periods are not perfectly 15 days and 30 days, of course the >corresponding phases of the moons will drift slightly from year to year. (And >the lowest common denominator in days between the two periods will be the >repeat time?) The orbits were established by the first terraformers, but they have drifted over the millennia,and now the two moons are no longer in sync. Wish I could help more. All I do is report what I see, and Kashi and Gayel are both frequent together in the night sky. Anybody who wants to play with astronomy is welcome to give it a try. Regards, Phil ----- //467 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti follows up on the Mental Illness topic. ] As a followup regarding mental illness, there are several Stability Temples which take care of those of the mentally ill whose clan is unknown, or cannot support them. The Staff of Mercy Society of the Temple of Ketengku maintains a facility near Thraya which is actually quite nice, and is dedicated to the care of the mentally ill. Which reminds me, I haven't been there to visit Lord Sanjesh in OH so long... Aside from Ketengku, the Temples of Avanthe and Dilinala operate hospitals, and some of the larger of these, in Hauma and Bey Su, can care for the mentally ill for brief periods, but are not set up for long-term care of that kind. This care is for at most several months duration, while the clan comes up with some means of caring for the individual. If you'll recall from Man of Gold, Harsan found himself dispensed eventually to the tender mercies of slavers, a common fate for the "functionally" mentally ill. The learning disabled, those with brain injuries who can still work, etc, my find themselves scrubbing floors, toting bales and cleaning stables. If that seems cruel, just look at American policy towards the mentally ill, the quality of our institutions, and the persons with Down's syndrome and learning disabilities one finds washing dishes in cafeterias and working at McDonalds. My brother is one such. Granted the Tsolyani don't have the Special Olympics, but maybe they don't feel the need to ameliorate cultural guilt with public pageantry the way we do. ----- //468 [Moderator's Note: Jamie Norrish asks about other types of mental instabil-] [ ity and how they are handled on Tekumel. ] >While the posts on this matter have been interesting, I'd love to >learn more about attitudes towards those with mental illnesses which >don't result in homicidal rages and/or lack of mental functionality. >Would someone who was known to be schizophrenic be allowed to take >important roles? It is hard to stop someone who comes from a rich and powerful clan or has a traditional role in society from taking his/her post, crazy or not. Examples from our world include King Ludwig of Bavaria, Caligula, and other "toons." Tekumel is much the same here: unless the patient is really incapacitated and unable to function at all, chances are that the society will let him/her fill the post and perform whatever functions are possible -- while keepng him/her surrounded with servants, chamberlains (= guards), and more levelheaded "counsellors." A good example is the Mad King of Salarvya, who has to be protcted by an official "regent" from doing really ugly things. The old king is permitted to play in his walled garden in Tsatsayagga, riding around in his golden chariot, pulled by squads of naked girl-children (whom he doesn't seem to harm otherwise). Sometimes he tells people he is a god, at other times he hides beneath the throne and whimpers. He is, however, able to function to the extent that Duke Zhurrilugga, the Regent, can get a signature out of him. >Would someone who had multiple personalities be >shunned as freakish, just because of that fact? Depends how disfunctional the person is. Chances are that he would be unable to maintain much personal continuity, and his clansmen, priests, etc. would declare him to be inhabited by demons. There is no "heresy," however, and he would thus not be tried as a witch or burnt at the stake. If he can function at some level or other, he will be allowed to live out his life as a "funny uncle" in his clanhouse -- preferably a back room in a rural branch, of course. If his several personalities were consistent enough, the priesthoods might declare him to be possessed by several "spirit-souls" and thus someone with special knowledge. The Empire has various soothsayers, oracles, and fortune-tellers who are quite probably delusional, but as long as they don't speak or act against the established doctrines of the priesthoods and the Imperium, they are allowed to fill these roles. If they do go against society in some visible and dangerous way, they may well be quietly "offed," unless they can be defused by locking them up in a remote prison cell, or some such solution. >Which leads me also to ask how people "hearing voices" may be >interpreted by different folk, whatever the actual reason may be. These exist, as mentioned above. Hearing voices may be interpreted as multiple spirit-souls; if a patient hears one or more of the Gods, he may be visited by a squad of priestly philosopher-physicians, who will try to interpret his behaviour. In most cases, the "voices" are not consistent enough and have no real secrets to reveal -- memories of divine actions at the Battle of Dormoron Plain, for exmaple, and the patient's claims are rejected. In almost all cases, he/she ends up in a back room in the clanhouse; wealthy victims receive better treatment and are "retired" to a mansion on a country estate; those who are very poor and not lucky enough to be taken in by one of the hospices referred to in a previous post, wander the streets, begging, declaiming, and picking through offal for food. These unfortunates are often victimised by neighbours and passersby. Sometimes they are ridiculed, driven away, or even stoned if they are obnoxious. They are not sacrificed, of course, since the Gods require healthy victims. Occasional deliberate deception is often investigated. With various truth-telling spells available, it is hard to pretend to be insane if one is not. I am reminded of a Yan Koryani officer who was captured during the recent war; he pretended to have been struck on the head with a weapon in battle and reduced to babbling insanity. Somehow the usual spells did not work on him, but the priesthoods were suspicious. Lord Ksarul's clergy arranged for a child to be given the appearance of the man's son in Yan Kor, pretending that the boy had been captured when the city of Grai fell. They brought the child to a holding cell near the one occupied by the "madman." The officer at once offered to be sacrificed instead of his son -- an offer the Tsolyani immediately accepted, and so it was done. The system is far from perfect (as on this world as well!), and mistakes and mis-diagnoses are common. It's all in "the luck of the draw." Regards, Phil ----- //469 [Moderator's Note: Peter Bismire offers up a treatise on Archery on Tekumel.] [ The Professor sprinkled in some comments on his work. ] Legend: > = Professor Barker's comments = Peter's article. >Not much left for me to say. Peter has put the pieces together well. I >looked for mistakes and for things I can add but did not see many of >either. Archery in Tsolyanu: While in Jakalla recently I had the good fortune to meet Muresh hiPagartra a former Molkar in the legion of Girikteshmu, 23rd Imperial Archers. Lord Muresh is best described as an enthusiastic archer and collector of archery equipment from Tsolyanu and foreign lands. The following are notes I made while talking with him and can only apologise if I have incorrectly recorded the details he supplied. >Muresh tends to be a bit over-enthusiastic when talking about archery. If >you listen to him, most of the great victories in Tsolyani history are due >to some famous archer or other. Pikemen, swordsmen, etc. are just like the >extras in a DeMille movie: there for the colour. "Archery is a noble accomplishment and has a long lineage going back to the Gods. At the Battle of Dormoron Plain Karakan Himself chose to oppose the Wanderers Between the Worlds in his Aspect of Mrachinra armed with a bow which had two tips of red ruby, limbs of green chrysolite, a grip of white pearl and a string of red gold. Her arrows were of topaz, fletched with emeralds and their heads were of sapphire. As the enemy approached She nocked and fired in one smooth movement time after time never letting her eyes stray from their advance. With each arrow tens of the adversaries fell until their mighty legion withered away to nothing." >You should compare some of the other versions of this episode! "The use of missile weapons in the armies of Tsolyanu is based on two separate tactics. The specific missile legions are intended to harass and damage the enemy at a distance where they are unable to respond. Thus the archer legions use bows that are capable of throwing a lighter arrow a great distance. By contrast those cohorts of line legions that are equipped with missiles role is to disorganise the enemies line just before contact. Consequently their bows are shorter but of heavier manufacture, capable of giving their heavy arrows a greater force capable of piercing armour and helmets." >Correct. "Some legions substitute throwing clubs (Legion of the Givers of Sorrow) or bolas (Legion of Heketh of Purdimal). These are intended to entangle the legs of the approaching enemy (bolas and clubs used underarm or be thrown over the fighting line into the enemies rear ranks (bolas). " >Somebody also had advocated using nets to tangle enemy formations, but I think >this came from that fellow who fancies himself a Shen... "In Tsolyanu crossbows and handbows are regarded equally. In Livyanu, Yan Kor, Salarvya, Saa Allaqi and the smaller nations of the north the handbow has a greater appeal. In Mu'ugalavya the crossbow has a slight ascendancy." >Economic and technological reasons, probably. "One of the Mu'galavyani legions (Legion IX of the Fourth Palace, "Dune Leapers") use a type of small repeating crossbow. This is designed to fire two quarrels of reed at a time, which due to their lightness are poisoned. It has a handle which when worked back and forth automatically draws back the string, loads two quarrels and shoots the weapon. I do not know where these are made." >They used to have a factory in Gaschne, but I haven't ever seen it. "Among the Kurtani each village has a master bowyer who is also responsible for the training of young boys. From the age of about six no Kurtani youngster seems to be without a bow in his hand. On the edge of the village they erect two poles with a small ring between them. A child must be able to shoot an arrow through this ring before he can eat his evening meal. As they get older the distance from which they are allowed to shoot increases. >True. Lots of hard work and practice. Poor shots and kids with weak eyesight >tend to become very skinny. Only Kurtani are allowed to harvest Seresh wood for bows and each village jealously guards its groves from their neighbours. Any intruders into their hills who damages a Seresh tree is likely to be used for archery practice and I can count on one hand the times I have seen a Kurtani not hit his mark squarely. The Seresh tree is slow growing and their ancestors planted the trees they harvest several hundred years ago. Thus when they harvest a tree they will plant seedlings to replace it and creatures of the forest that are liable to damage the young plants are hunted ruthlessly in the vicinity. >The swamps around Purdimal also produce a related species of Seresh-wood. >It is not quite as good as the Kurtani variety. Ssar-wood is also a common >product of the swamps there. The wood is harvested during the month of Langala and bow-staves are cut from the trunk. These are straight, one and a half dhaiba in length and four choptsekh thick. Great care is taken in ensuring that the proper proportion is kept between the outerwood and the heartwood so that the bow will be of the best. Once cut the staves are bound in bundles of ten and allowed to season for several years in a special hut in the village. Unlike most Kurtani building this is not dug into the ground but raised on piles allowing air to circulate. The hut and piles are sprayed with various plant concoctions that repel wood-eating funguses and borer-Shqa. The only entrance is reached by a curious style of ladder which is a log with steps cut into it. When seasoned the bowyer using a wide range of tools shapes the stave. The Kurtani seem to make a point not to use much metal in their common lives retaining what they have for decoration and ornament. The bowyer's tools thus are local in origin and normally made by the man himself. Some shaping knives and similar are made from Chlen hide but the teeth and bones from animals such as Zrne and Tsi'il are mainly used. This is one of the reasons that Kurtani seem so eager to help visiting hunters as Tsolyani not only pay but also don't appreciate useful articles such as these and the Kurtani can help themselves. When finally shaped a Kurtani bow is a thing of beauty the contrast between the two types of wood is usually enhanced by coating with a home-made varnish (not Ssun) and polishing using a piece of Vringalu- leather. Of an evening you will find the Kurtani sitting around their fires polishing their bows." "Arrow heads can be made of many things. I have heard that the nomads of Milumanaya use the discarded (?) teeth of the Great Aya as heads for their arrows. These are made from a length of reed, I do not know where they get these, with nocks and forepart made from the wood of some hardy desert shrub. Into the forepart they set one of these teeth. (Lord Muresh then showed me one of these in his collection. It was about 30inches long with the back 18 inches some sort of dark red reed. The next 6 inches was a heavy black type of wood and the front a lethal looking point of what could have passed for a milky white glass. A very close look showed minute serrations on this point and Muresh demonstrated its strength by sawing through a chlen-hide vambrace. The fletching was difficult to identify it looked like it was a piece from an insect wing but seemed too be too tough for this source.) The Kurtani make some arrow heads out of bone including the blunts they use for fowling. A Kurtani's preferred target when hunting animals is the muzzle or eye as this avoids damage to the creature's skin increasing the worth. Also a man who has to shoot the body of the animal to bring it down is accounted a poor archer. This is why Kurtani seem so amused when some lordling recounts his hunting prowess as very few Tsolyani archers would take a risk of missing the charging Zrne by shooting it through the eye but a Kurtani would." "Around Fasiltum they play an archery game using basket targets of woven leather. These are arranged in a pile and archers fire at about 60-dhaiba distance. The archer who scatters the baskets first is regarded warmly by the locals." "The different legions of Tsolyanu paint their arrows in distinctive colours and patterns, as examples: my old legion (Girikteshmu, 23rd Imperial Archers) paint theirs in a spiral pattern of red and blue, the Legion of the Clan of the Broken Bough uses stripes of red and orange and the Legion of the Peaks of Kraa paint theirs bone white. I believe that some of the Yan Koryani do the same but I do not know their legion patterns. The Mu'uglavyani use red and black on their arrows in different patterns ie stripes, spirals, the front and back being different even checker patterns but again I do not know the significance if any." >Well done. Nice piece. I have to give old Muresh credit for his knowledge. Regards, Phil ----- //470 [Moderator's Note: David Allan has further questions about the Mu'ugalavyani,] [ their worship Hrsh, and their plans for Livyanu. ] >One more question regarding the Temple of Hrsh: is it now or can it be >expected to send missionaries to conqured Livyanu, and if so how forceful >are attempts at conversion be likely to be? It's been written elsewhere >that the Mu'uglavyani often lack subtlety in matters of cross cultural >exchange. Missionaries are rather uncommon on Tekumel, where a variety of deities, sects, and beliefs are not only tolerated but rather expected. The pressure brought to bear upon non-believers is more economic and social than outright religious. Join the right religion and be a member of the club! Lower taxes, business concessions and commissions, less bureaucratic hassle, the right to join various elite organisations in the army and administration, etc. The Mu'ugalavyani indeed lack subtlety, but they realise that stomping their way through Livyanu will get them precious few converts. Their officers have been warned to keep the troops in check, although there has been looting and many impromptu executions of "resistors." The pressure is all through making it possible for cooperative Livyani to maintain their lives, properties, etc. with some dignity, while those who do not collaborate are ignored, subtly mistreated, and left outside the circles of government/priesthood/business. The Mu'ugalavyani have a rather proprietary attitude towards Lord Hrsh: they prefer keeping him for themselves. All his rituals are in Classical Mu'ugalavyani, with only smatterings in Engsvanyali. Converts are accepted but not really made very welcome. His inner circles are closed to those who are not descended from impeccable Mu'ugalavyani ethnic lines. Regards, Phil ----- //471 [Moderator's Note: Paul Snow asks about Heroes of the Age, and puts forth ] [ an associate's hypothesis about how they are chosen. ] [ What are your thoughts on this hypothesis, Professor? ] Greetings, Nikun hiSayodla here. I've managed to snatch a rest in my teaching duties here in the Temple Academy and I thought I would communicate with my colleagues in the Blue Room on some current research interests. I recently read with interest the history of The Ever-Glorious Empire: Engsvan hla Ganga by Bareka hiShanyal of the Clan of the High Pinnacle. While, of course, the knowledge contained within that document has been common knowledge for Scholar Priests of our Ancient Lord of Secrets for many years, I was pleased to see its open publication. However, while I truly enjoyed the scholarly discourse of Librarian Bareka I felt he failed to make a few points clear. It was the divine will of our Lord Ksarul, manifest in his aspect Lord Enome, that granted Pavar his visions and thus brought about the Engsvan hla Ganga. When Our Lord Ksarul choses to share knowledge, its revelation brings change, power and greatness to Tekumel. But enough of Temple dogma ... On p23 of the cited work, when discussing the Heroes of The Age, it is said that five (sometimes six) persons make up a composite "Hero" whose duty it is to defend the Plane against the Pariah Deities. Now, I know that each of us have five souls the Baletl (the Spirit Soul), the Bakte (the Body), the Chusetl (the Shadow self), the Hlakme (the conscious mind) and the Pedhetl (the Enemy). I postulate that _the_ Hero that defends the Plane is composed of five souls donated by the five Heroes who donate the greatest available Baletl, Bakte, Chusetl, Hlakme and Pedhetl. We can test this theory by looking at the example given. I will attribute to each Hero the soul that he donated. At the end of the Second Epoch the task fell to:- Kaijuma Vurudhame, a soldier, archer and nobleman of Purdanim [Baletl] the Wise Maiden Melende [Hlakme] the Trickster Erjuon of Tha'mis [Pedhetl] the Dealer in Magics Khorkhonu of Te'ero [Chusetl] "Thick" Choggu - "He Who Crushes Sro" [Bakte] I would be delighted to hear any comments that anyone has on this. Best wishes, Nikun hi Sayodla of the Blue Hood Clan. -- //472 [Moderator's Note: Paul Snow asks about the Kaija Protectorate. ] >Nikun hiSayodla here with some questions. >First, here is the background to my questions. >I've been reading more history and found that Emperor Gyesmu "the Iron >Fist" (2015-2065) added the Three Protectorates to Tsolyanu. These >protectorates are (were) Kaija, Kerunan and Chaigari. >Looking at the maps which I have available, I found that the Kaija >Protectorate is a large area of land that stretches (as far as I can tell) >from Jaikalor and the Hlutgru invested swamps in the East over to Jakalla >and the Mssuma River in the West. >This astounds me as it means that Jakalla which I think of as a typical >and defining Tsolyani city was for many years not part of the Empire. Or >possibly, if the border of the Kaija Protectorate is the Equnoyel River >then Jakalla straddled the border between Tsolyanu and the Salarvyani >controlled Kaija. The Kaija Protectorate was indeed founded during the Time of the Usurpers. It was simply left out when the final treaties were signed and sealed. There were political reasons for this, which are too complex to go into here. The area had always been "difficult" The eastern part was always a favourite hunting ground for the Hlutrgu. The west was a backwater of agricultural holdings that fed (and still feed) Jakalla and her sister port cities. There were local governors who were either toadies of the Petal Throne or else local separatists. Often these people seem to have been personally greedy, without much ideology of any kind. Kaija then remained semi-independent during part of the Second Imperium. The Salarvyani claimed it, but the Tsolyani occupied it without any legal basis for doing so. There was little danger that it ever would have fallen completely under Salarvyani domination, not even when the Tsolyani Imperium was at its weakest and most fragmented. Kaija is simply too important to Jakalla to allow that to happen, and the Salarvyani have too much to do elsewhere -- and supply lines that would be much too long for any important war effort. >It is not clear to me when these Protectorates were founded. I guess that >they might date from The Time of the Usurpers (1699) when Vriggetsu Dnash >"the Usurper of the South" presumable held power in this region but I can >find no definite details on the Protectorates. There are indeed a few histories and treatises on them, but these are in Tsolyani. Kerunan and Chaigari were indeed fairly close to Salarvya and under the domination of Khum and Koyluga respectively. The Tsolyani seized these by force of arms -- he was trying to retake Mmillaka, after several centuries of changing fortunes, but in this he finally was unsuccessful. >So my questions are:- > >1. The establishment of the Protectorates. When? How? Do these political >boundaries just date back to the Priestkings? The boundaries date from local traditions during the Second Imperium, although the names and terrirotial identifications do appear to have been used by the Engsvanyali. >2. Does Kaija include Jakalla? No. Kaija usually refers to the south bank of the Equnoyel river, over to Jaikalor (which the Tsolyani always said was "their" city, and on down south into the Swamps where the Hlutrgu hold sway. At times, however, when it suited their political needs, the inhabitants of the region between the Rananga River and the Equnoyel also spoke of themselves as "Kaijani." Even the people of Thraya briefly declared themselves an "historical and traditional part of Kaija" for a few years during bad times. >3. When were the Three Protectorates lost such that Emperor Gyesmu had to >retake them? The tradition goes back into Engsvanyali times: these places (not then carefully delineated by any boundaries) had all been part of the Empire of Ganga. The Tsolyani now state that they are only trying to reconstitute the Priestkings' Empire. But then, the Salarvyani can say this, too. They are descendants of the Engsvanyali, after all! The whole issue is clouded by perceived nationalisms and propaganda. >4. How did the Gangan Archipelago fare when an independent protectorate >was controllling one bank of the Mssuma river? Did this effect trade? In the days of the Priestkings, the western portions of Kaija were always under control of Ganga, while the southeast was left to the Hlutrgu. The little monsters were just too numerous and too tough to eradicate. A kind of "assumed" treaty of non-aggression seems to have existed with this alien species in those days, as it more or less does today. Neither party wants to risk many casualties and a long and ugly campaign. The Hlutrgu used to make their yearly migrations out into Msumtel Bay, floating ashore on Ganga and Thayuri Isles in their little coracles. Now they no longer do this, preferring instead to trek south through the swamps and launch their little boats into the northwestern areas of Tamkade Bay, from whence they let the currents carry them on south out to sea and eventual death. Why they follow this practice is unknown -- perhaps instinctive behaviour from their own original world? Like the lemmings of old Terra? The land of Kaija was somewhat higher in those days, before the sinking of Ganga. The Priestkings' historians treat the Kaija region as a backwater used for agriculture, with some pretty villas built in the western part for country residences. This continues to this day, as everyone knows, with Prince Rereshqala's fancy mansion in hex (Zocchi map) 2615. The human inhabitants of northern and western Kaija have always been docile, Tsolyani-speaking, suburbanites, with few pretenses to autonomy (barring a few unwise proclamations by later governors who were only beating their drums to establish their own importance and make money!). These officials were no more and no less venal than the administrations of other provinces of the empire. In Kerunan and Chaigari, however, the population was mixed with Salarvyani elements, and the governments (such as they were!) had to be restructured when Gyesmu's troops took over. Now these people, too, are culturally Tsolyani for all intents and purposes. Regards, Phil ----- //473 [Moderator's Note: The Professor responds to Paul's queston about Heroes of] [ the Age. ] I'll see what I can say about the heroes of the Age. Much of their lore is simply legend, or is contained in sectarian histories that probably contain a good portion of propaganda. > Nikun hiSayodla here. I've managed to snatch a rest in my >teaching duties here in the Temple Academy and I thought I would >communicate with my colleagues in the Blue Room on some current research >interests. > I recently read with interest the history of The Ever-Glorious >Empire: Engsvan hla Ganga by Bareka hiShanyal of the Clan of the High >Pinnacle. While, of course, the knowledge contained within that document >has been common knowledge for Scholar Priests of our Ancient Lord of >Secrets for many years, I was pleased to see its open publication. > However, while I truly enjoyed the scholarly discourse of >Librarian Bareka I felt he failed to make a few points clear. It was the >divine will of our Lord Ksarul, manifest in his aspect Lord Enome, that >granted Pavar his visions and thus brought about the Engsvan hla Ganga. >When Our Lord Ksarul choses to share knowledge, its revelation brings >change, power and greatness to Tekumel. But enough of Temple dogma ... Only the Ndalu Clan preaches that Pavar received his Pantheon and revelations through Lord Ksarul (Enome in those days). Most of the other sects either ignore questions of this kind, or else go along with the usual dogma that it was "the Gods" who revealed these matters to Pavar, using Thumis as their "pipeline." A few texts do proclaim Hnalla as the intermediary to Pavar. Needless to say, there are no contemporary texts or "authentic" sources (that are beyond a good chance of having been doctored). > On p23 of the cited work, when discussing the Heroes of The Age, >it is said that five (sometimes six) persons make up a composite "Hero" >whose duty it is to defend the Plane against the Pariah Deities. Now, I >know that each of us have five souls the Baletl (the Spirit Soul), the >Bakte (the Body), the Chusetl (the Shadow self), the Hlakme (the conscious >mind) and the Pedhetl (the Enemy). > I postulate that _the_ Hero that defends the Plane is composed of >five souls donated by the five Heroes who donate the greatest available >Baletl, Bakte, Chusetl, Hlakme and Pedhetl. Again, straight from the doctrines of the Ndalu Clan! Whether this is fact or theory is up to the believer. >We can test this theory by looking at the example given. I will attribute >to each Hero the soul that he donated. >At the end of the Second Epoch the task fell to:- >Kaijuma Vurudhame, a soldier, archer and nobleman of Purdanim [Baletl] >the Wise Maiden Melende [Hlakme] >the Trickster Erjuon of Tha'mis [Pedhetl] >the Dealer in Magics Khorkhonu of Te'ero [Chusetl] >"Thick" Choggu - "He Who Crushes Sro" [Bakte] Your postulations do indeed make good sense. Really,though, you should read some of the Stability treatises on this subject. >I would be delighted to hear any comments that anyone has on this. > >Best wishes, >Nikun hi Sayodla of the Blue Hood Clan. And do give my regards to your Ndalu Clan masters...! Regards, Phil ----- //474 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul finds a small anomaly in Nikun's treatise on ] [ Heroes of the Age. :) ] [ Well, I've already failed on my resolution to do some ] [ Blue Room stuff every day. Sorry everyone. I'll keep ] [ doing my best. ] I would think that our esteemed colleague, Nikun hi Sayodla of the Blue Hood Clan, would argue for the composite of *six* heroes -- six, after all, being the number of the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room. (Five is that of Lord Sarku.) ;-) (Then again, maybe Professor Barker's excellent "Tsolyani Numerology" article isn't in wide circulation. We have a Ksarul numerologist in our campaign.) Joe Saul ----- //475 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff wonders if there are any Bram Stoker style ] [ vampires on Tekumel and the effect their longevity ] [ would have on their perspective of events on Tekumel. ] There may be extant works that would tell me the answers to this query, but I haven't seen any such, and what -does- exist may not give real answer anyway. Some time back, I mentioned the peculiar advantage that a vampire might enjoy on Tekumel, living in cultures of such hoary antiquity that 'future shock' is an utterly unknown and inconceivable problem, where only extreme longevity, in whatever form that may take, can provide any sense of dynamic change at all. Given this, my question is obvious: ARE there vampires, by the modern Bram Stoker/Anne Rice definition of the term, on Tekumel? I give that qualifi- cation for obvious reasons; I'm well aware of things such as the Mrur, and even the Shedra, but these appear more akin to liches--there's not much chance of either one -passing- in human society, what I mean... I can see how there -might- be, if the spells by which the Mrur were created were 'fine-tuned' a bit, but if such a refinement existed the priesthood of Sarku would be using it already. So, could one find 'Hehellukoi Vlad hiDraku' somewhere on Tekumel...? ----- //476 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff works a bit more on the astronomical issue ] [ of the moons of Tekumel. Not being an astronomer or ] [ astrophysicist, I couldn't tell you if Gordon's obser- ] [ vations are correct. ] Legend = Gordon's ideas > = John's questions * = Professor's reply Houston, we have a problem... >As to the moons, am I right in thinking that . . . > >Tekumel has 2 moons, Kashi (smaller as seen from Tekumel, and red) and >Gayel (light green). If Kashi has an orbit of 30 days, and Gayel of 15, >then they are always in sync. Months have 30 days.. *I am not up on orbits and astronomy, so my answers to Mr. Grandidge may be *off by a country mile! * *... Wish I could help more. All I do is report what I see, and Kashi and Gayel *are both frequent together in the night sky. Anybody who wants to play with *astronomy is welcome to give it a try. * *Regards, * *Phil So, I did-- or started to. It was that business of "If Kashi has an orbit of 30 days, and Gayel of 15," that got me thinking. "If the orbital periods are not perfectly 15 days and 30 days, of course the corresponding phases of the moons will drift slightly from year to year," John Grandidge says. It's not likely that they -would- be, as Phil points out--but what are they, then? My source for astronomical data was, of course, Volume I of 'Swords and Glory,' where facts and figures are laid out nicely... -too- nicely. For one thing, we are told that Tekumel has a diameter of 20,838 km. Earth itself has a diameter of 12,746 km. Far from being 'slightly larger,' Tekumel is 1.6 times the size of Earth. (If we make the gentle assumption that 'diameter' and 'radius' became confused, as I first considered, that would make it -smaller-.) There is only one Solar example that comes close: As Mars is to Earth, so Earth would be to Tekumel. It is on the threshold of being a 'subjovian' gas giant! Further, Kashi's orbit, at a mean distance of 568,350 km, has an orbital period (assuming Terrestrial gravity, which is so implied by the 'adjustments' mentioned) of 50 days, 18 hours, give or take a few minutes. (Gayel completes its own orbital revolution in 25 days, 16 hrs, and some odd minutes.) You can see that your Sourcebook is going to need some... editing. (Curiously, Gayel's orbital period is still 0.51 that of Kashi; wherever Phil got his figures, they obviously -felt- right...) * * * But if you fudge the numbers so they come out right, Mr Grandidge's questions are easily answered. Yes, of course Kashi and Gayel are full together; if one satellite has twice the orbital period of the other, Gayel will also be full when Kashi is on the other side of the sky, and they will both be 'new' together as well. What's more, every sixty days Gayel will indeed transit Kashi (not eclipse; it's not large enough) as seen from -somewhere- on the Equator, as it enters opposition while both moons are crossing the equatorial plane. Of course, the necessary viewpoint will often be in the middle of the ocean... If you want corrected figures for your Sourcebook-- and I mean, 'if'; if anyone in twenty-two years has ever called this question, I'll be astounded--I'll cook 'em up for you. If you want Tekumel to have anything like a breathable atmosphere, and not a reducing witches-brew of helium and methane, boiling under the solar glare by day and lit by eerie, crackling aurorae at night ('lighter core elements' indeed; if Earth had no magnetic field, the 'Northern Lights' would dance over the whole planet with the deadly brilliance of unshielded radiation, and where d'ye suppose that field -comes- from? And Tekumel is even -closer- to its Sun...) then you'll want some tinkering with that diameter as well. Yr most humble and obedient, G J N P.S. Sure, it would be on its -way- to a Terrestrial oxy-nitrogen mix; that's what a 'reducing' atmosphere is. It would no longer look like a half-pint Jupiter, especially after the gravitation was adjusted; it would look more like a feverishly sick Venus, with a surface temperature that would boil LEAD. [Moderator's Note: Gordon further wrote the following. ] "What's more, every sixty days Gayel will indeed transit Kashi (not eclipse; it's not large enough) as seen from -somewhere- on the Equator, as it enters opposition..." My fault-- I confused the sizes of the two moons as seen from the surface. Of course it will eclipse it utterly. Given time and incentive, I could work out how long each eclipse would last, if you were interested. Gordon. ----- //477 [Moderator's Note: Kenji Schwarz wants to start a sub-list that will deal ] [ with those of us who are eager to try to speak Tsolyani.] [ Let him know at the address below if you are interested,] [ please don't send the responses to me! Thanks. ] I was wondering if there were other Blue Roomers who are interested in the Tsolyani language, and would be interested in setting up an informal email list to use it. What I have in mind is nothing fancy -- just a forum for folks to practice reading and composing in Tsolyani, with discussion of the language in English as needed. 'In-character' would be extra fun, I think. Anyone else out there have a craving to try this? If so, drop me a note at and we'll see what can be done. Kenji Schwarz kenji@accessone.com ----- //478 [Moderator's Note: Paul Snow asks about the Ndalu Clan. I know the Ndalu] [ are in league with (I believe) Cusp of Night and ] [ Copper Tomb organizations, but the Ndalu always seem ] [ to be the organizers, and most feared. Some more info] [ on them would be of interest to me, also. ] > >Nikun hi Sayodla of the Blue Hood Clan. > > And do give my regards to your Ndalu Clan masters...! > Whoops! I see that my comments gave away some of my new relgious insight. If you remember, a while ago I had a few interesting conversations with my dear uncle Arksa hiVayka [Blue Room message 24]. After that some of his friends came to see me and made me see some theological matters in a new light. If I have let a few things slip then I hope that the retribution will not be too great. If I am lucky perhaps only a new post teaching grubby infants in the Swamps of Ksarul until I have learned the art of silence. Meanwhile, what can you tell me of my masters in the Ndalu Clan? I find it interesting that there is only one other secret society to compare itself with that great building block of our life, the clan. Was Ndalu a person or is this clan a lost lineage of one of the ancient Ksarul worshipping clans? I even have some very wild speculations which I would like to share with you. I have heard it whispered that in the early days of the Empire that the Tlakotoni struggled with the Priesthood of Ksarul for dominance of the land that is now Tsolyanu. I believe that the Ndalu Clan was formed out of the Ksarul worshipping faction that lost that struggle. They are after all still dedicated to the pursuit of political power; trying to grasp that which slipped through their hands before. Nikun hiSayodla ----- //479 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul responds to Gordon's question about Vampires, and] [ the Professor also gives his reply. ] [Joe's response.] >Given this, my question is obvious: ARE there vampires, by the modern Bram >Stoker/Anne Rice definition of the term, on Tekumel? I give that qualifi- >cation for obvious reasons; I'm well aware of things such as the Mrur, and >even the Shedra, but these appear more akin to liches--there's not much >chance of either one -passing- in human society, what I mean... There *are* such things as Jajgi, and they are capable of "passing." They don't drink blood (as far as I know), but they are undead... and as long as they remember to breathe when around the warm, they can be very hard to spot. Ask my players. Joe Saul ------- [The Professor's response] >Some time back, I mentioned the peculiar advantage that a vampire might >enjoy on Tekumel, living in cultures of such hoary antiquity that 'future >shock' is an utterly unknown and inconceivable problem, where only extreme >longevity, in whatever form that may take, can provide any sense of dynamic >change at all. >Given this, my question is obvious: ARE there vampires, by the modern Bram >Stoker/Anne Rice definition of the term, on Tekumel? I give that qualifi- >cation for obvious reasons; I'm well aware of things such as the Mrur, and >even the Shedra, but these appear more akin to liches--there's not much >chance of either one -passing- in human society, what I mean... If you mean undead creatures who suck blood to survive, fizzle and smoke in the sunlight, turn into bats and fly around the room, get all upset when faced with garlic, and go bonkers when confronted by a cross (and what *does* a Jewish vampire do-- or a Ksarul, etc. vampire?)--- the answer is no. Tekumel's undead do include the Jajgi, however, which is a similar sort of entity. The Jajgi is a much more intelligent Shedra. It can have a normal-appearing body, clever mind, and many talents. But it's dead and has to be activated by Other Planar power. (Sounds like some people I know... eh?) >I can see how there -might- be, if the spells by which the Mrur were >created were 'fine-tuned' a bit, but if such a refinement existed the >priesthood of Sarku would be using it already. Exactly. The Jajgi takes a lot of fine-tuning, and it is not common. It cannot "convert" living victims by biting them, of course, nor does it have anything to do with religion. It is simply a corpse that has been "repowered" by energy from the Planes Beyond, with certain features (a normal-appearing body, for example) and talents (often psychic, sometimes armed with sorcerous spells) and with a free will of its own. It is not a "slave" of some higher master -- unless given a mindbar and "dominated" by that mage. It's a pretty scary item because it is so normal. It can even breathe to fool others, though bleeding is pretty difficult for it to simulate. >So, could one find 'Hehellukoi Vlad hiDraku' somewhere on Tekumel...? Not as such. But a nice Jajgi? Absolutely. Regards, Phil ----- //480 [Moderator's Note: Alan Musielewicz writes about an adventure in the Prof's ] [ campaign where they were involved with a Hero of the Age.] [ Find those notes, Al! I'm very interested in hearing of ] [ the adventure. ] I believe there were five of us when we formed the hero of the age. It took several years (of real time) to get the materials, items, devices, demon allies, interplaner connections, and the like together in order to form the hero of the age. The battle was incredible and I will have to look for my notes. Of the five, two of us after defeating the Pariah deities decided to cross to the other side. Illoa Tlashte out of a sense of wonder, revelation, duty to his father and after becoming privy to some of the deeper secrets of Tekumel (which we are sworn never to reveal) and I Achan Tlashte (formerly hi' Sayanu of the Red Mountain Clan in Jakalla) did so out of loyalty to my Lord Illoa, thus making my one ultimate act of loyalty to my lord also my ultimate act of betrayal to my people. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.