These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVES -- VOLUME 1 1 The Town of Setnakh 2 Pariah Heresiology 3 Clan Facilities 4 Announcements 5 Sakbe Road Question 6 More Setnakh Information (link to 1) 7 Blasphemous Accelerators 8 Gods on Tekumel (link to 2) 9 Blasphemous Accelerators Followup (link to 7) 10 Gods on Tekumel Followup (link to 8) 11 Pariah Heresiology Reply (link to 2) 12 More Setnakh Info, other Religions (link to 6) 13 Pariah Heresiology, Part 2 14 Pariah Heresiology, Part 2 Reply (link to 13) 15 Place: Kamore Ideas on Landscape 16 Place: Kamore Response (link to 15) 17 Place: Kamore Reply (link to 15) 18 More on Kamore from Professor Barker (link to 16) 19 Third Tekumel Novel 20 Salarvya Questions and Answers 21 Aliens and the Gods, and Magic 22 Aliens and the Gods, and Magic Reply 23 More on Magic and the Gods 24 Even more on Magic and the Gods 25 Some Levity 26 The Pottery of Tekumel 27 Clan houses in Cities 28 Engsvanyali Temples (and another joke) 29 The Technology of Chlen Hide 30 The Technology of Chlen Hide Reply *************************************** //1 This conversation was a part of some communication that took place between Listmember Anton Dovydaitis and Professor Barker. 1) Is there a village where the Sakbe Road splits north-east to Thraya > and south-eastish to Jaikolar towards the eastern edge of hex 2918, > and what is it's name? On the Zocchi map, the split is in the centre of 2917, not 2918. Please check and tell me if I am wrong. I just looked CLOSELY at the Zocchi map with a magnifying glass, and I think i'm right. Yes, the town at this juncture is named Setnakh. It is an unlovely, muddy place, filled with ferryboats, Chlen-carts, warehouses, and goods-merchants, who make it noisy, dirty, crowded, and generally awful (spelled offal). Neither I nor my players have gone there often, but we have been through it. Bob Alberti may recall adventures near the place. > > 2) Is there a secondary highway east from Thraya to where the Sakbe > Road crosses Rananga heading further east to Sokatis. Why is this > obvious link in the Sake Roads missing? Is there a village there > where the Sakbe crosses Rananga? There was a Sakbe Road link there, but it was destroyed some centuries ago and never rebuilt -- problems like money (graft), lack of clan support, poor qualities of local stone (the great alluvial plain is mostly dirt and clay, down to a depth of many feet), etc. and political squabbling have prevented the restoration of the Sakbe Road. The secondary road is pretty good, except in the worst of the rainy season. Another of our regular players, Lord Sanjesh hiKirisaya (Keith Dalluhn) will have fond memories of this part of the Empire. Oh, you asked about products sent by this route. From the east: forest products (wood, pitch, woven basketry), Salarvyani wines, Salarvyani cloth, copper ingots, Dlel-fruit, and gold; from the west: Jakallan wine, fancy glassware and pottery from Urmish and Katalal, Chlen-hide weapons and tools down from Katalal and Hauma, sea products from Jakalla itself, paper, inks, and paints, gems from all across Tsolyanu, agricultural products (grains, leather, etc.) -- a host of minor products. Does this help? If it's too general, I could ask somebody at the Palace of the Realm in Jakalla to provide exact figures. It would take awhile, of course, what with the current war. In message <2fbe13d8.anton@anton.infoserv.com> "Anton Dovydaitis" writes: > Dear Professor: > > It seems that the awful village of Setnakh will likely be the > first attempt at online collaboration. In order to maintain authenticity, > I would appreciate it if you could help me set some limits for us to work > within. To that end, I was hoping you could answer some questions: > > 1) What is the population of Setnakh? No firm estimate, but I would guess about 5-7 thousand. > > 2) What religions dominate, or do most clans have no religious preference? Hnalla, Avanthe, and Belkhanu predominate in the southeastern corner of the Empire. The usual clans listed in the Sourcebook may be found, although only a few have permanent clanhouses in this small town: White Stone,Great Stone, Amber Cloak (Belkhanu), Rising Sun, Green Bough, Blue Stream, Green Forest, OPen Hand, and several more low clans. Of the "dark" clans, Black Pinnacle and Black Monolith come to mind. > > 3) What are the most important clans there? Are there any high clans there? I think Might of Ganga has a commercial depot here: transhipping goods to barges to go south and then out to supply the islands in the southern sea. Nobody else I recall, but several medium-high clans (see above) have small establishments here, mostly as way stations for their members travelling up or down river. > > 4) Is there a monastary near by, and if so, what is its denomination? A Hnalla monastery is located just a few Tsan on toward Jakalla, but it is not very distinguished. Also a temple of Thumis that is distinctly tatty. > > 5) Are there any ruins nearby (might the area around Setnakh have been > a more important juncture in the past)? Most of the older buildings of this area go back only a few hundred years. Anything older is buried beneath alluvial mud. There were great cities here during the Engsvanyali period, but with the sinking of the southern tektonic plates and the drowning of Ganga itself, most of these remnants were buried. A few buildings go back to the early days of the Second Imperium,and there are stories about artefacts that were saved from the floods and hidden away here and there. No idea whether any are in Setnakh or not. All my players recalled about the place was the stench of dirty river water, mud, dead fish, and soggy laundry. They crossed over the land bridge to get from one river to the other here, and as I recall they didn't exactly enjoy it. -------------------- Chris Davis, Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu *************************************** //2 List Member Alex Stojanovic writes: Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts (This is meant as a stimulus to discussion, not as an authoritative disposition of any of these themes! - Alexander) I an interested in disentangling the relationship between the orthodox Engsvanyali Pantheon (Pavar's Tlomitlanyal/Tlokiriqaluyal) and the Heredox sects centered around the Pariah Dieties (The Goddess of the Pale Bone, The One Other, and The One Who Is). Basically, I postulate a much "closer" connexion between the theological-mythological orthodoxy and the cthnonic Pariah Dieties than has previously been suggested. I will further suggest that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers' rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleened from the worship of the Old Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah Dieties. It must be remembered that the complex orthodoxy relating to Aspect Theology on Tekumel -- i.e. which God does a specific "aspect" belong to -- is largely a matter of historical, economic, and social expediency. A Worshipper of Ksarul may claim, and have huge amounts of precedent to back him up, that Nirisepugallukh (The Blue Shadow) is an aspect of Lord Ksarul dating back from the Bednalljan Period. But I wonder... what if the Blue Shadow aspect was an amalgamation of The One Other and primitive "Ksarul Worship", just for argument's sake. What if the Blue Shadow aspect represents a co-opting by orthodoxy (The Pavar descendents) of faiths/beliefs/ and knowledge more appropriately attributed to one/more of the Pariah Dieties??? The question raises itself: how did the orthodox theologians such as Pavar "learn" about the Pariah Dieties? Answer: they were probably worhsippers of these dieties themseleves, and were "converted by the sword" to the "new faith"! What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] Although their numbers have always been small, they have "infiltrated" the orthodox religious institutions over the course of centuries. Guiding (by way of "small" alterations in the rituals and beliefs of these faiths, assassination, intrigue, and cunning) the orthodox religions to "move" more toward the "True Faith" (in their eyes). The wolf in the center of the fold! Much of Tekumel, from my perspective, is focused around that sort of imbricated intrigue -- a volatile and unstable view even more than the standard "Secret Societies" (like the Refulgent Blue Curtain Society (Ksarul), or the Order of Argent (Chegarra)). The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes, only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane! I know what you're thinking -- Christ -- where is he getting this rubbish! Everybody "knows" that Tekumel's dieties are "really" just superpowerful beings way beyond their worshippers on the cosmic power scale! It's "madness" to speculate of their motives! Where is this "abstruse" theological meandering going! The Scrolls of Pavar "clearly" state this (look at the Sourcebook for references, or the Book of Ebon Bindings)!!! I am suggesting that a slightly "deeper" look be taken at the "historical record" provided by Pavar and others after him... But what if the dieties are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their worshippers? These cookie-cutter dieties "representing" some elemental attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge, apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting. [Slight rant: The ethnologist George Dumezeil, in his classical study, Mitra/Varuna, showed the historical / transformation/ development/ assimilation process underlying much of what we call our "modern" faiths. He found a mythological matrix, based on the Indo-Iranian Dieities of Mitra and Varuna -- which was applied, mutated, transformed beyond recognition, until you got something like St. Valentine's Day arising out of the cthonic "Underworld rituals" of the Lupercalia! Talk about a twisted and complex incubation of new "religious"/societal forms.] My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an "outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities. Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive APriah cults have always been in the "center" of Tekumelyani socieities - guiding the course of events like puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special" knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic frenzy of liberation and obliteration. But where would one look to find support for such a theory. Let's start with Ksarul, my favorite Engsvanyali diety. I have always found the "Story" of Lord Ksarul's Banishment/Imprisonment, as recounted in the classical sources (Lament to the Wheel of Black - Engsvanyali Recension), suspiciously like a piece of "theological revisionism". Just as the advent of Classical Islam brought about a recasting of more cthonic myths and beliefs (Djinns, Demons, etc.) in light of the "approved party line", perhaps a similar curent overtook the Pariah Dieities. Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern "name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished", both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who "imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!) Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled" upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? Enquiring minds whant to know! I suggest that the banishment/imprisonment/return pattern of Ksarul is a prolepsis (foretelling) of the "return of the Pariah Dieties" -- an impending big Shootout at the OK Corral/Gotterdammerung which will (on a mythological/symbolic level) represent a closure/repetition of the "Divine Time". The Twilight/Doom of the Gods fortold in a legend which, ostensibly, is about a distant episode in Tekumel's "mythic" past in the Battle of Dormoron Plain. I really like that! Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological consolidation. That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted themselves over the next centuries? The One Oher did "help" to vanquish Ksarul -- "why" he did so remains a considerable point of dispute. But then, as sources relate, the worship of this diety was proscribed, the worshippers slaughtered, the temples razed, and all records striken.. Or were they? The Livyani have always been "secretive" about their faith on the Shadows Gods. What secrets really "lurk" in the Secret City of Dlash -- and what about that city in Livyanu NAMED AFTER A SECRET ARGOT OF THE PARIAH DIETIES -- SUNUZ??? Mere phonological coincidence? I don't think so! My interest in the Pariah Dieties arose out some research and development of the "languages" of these heretical sects/religions (Zna'ye, Sunuz, Ai Che). I have always maintained that Duruob is linguistically related to Sunuz -- again the Livyani connection! How about Llyani -- which was codified and used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable! I think modern Tekumelyani society is a "bit too accomodating" of Pavar's theology. What did Pavar base his insights on? The Sourcebook only mentions that he made contact with several more of the "Gods" (We have only historical tradition to prove that the Names/Entities mentioned in the Scrolls refer to the modern pantheon!) As in classical Hellenistic society, with its ten or so diffrent "Zeus" figures (they later got amalgamated into one "Super-Zeus"), Pavar's writing should be taken with a bit of historical/ethnological distrust. OK - you can summon the "Gods" or their minions -- but what does that prove about their identity? Nothing. I know several will point out the immense disinterest on Modern Tekumelyani to engage in theological disputation, but that is really beside the point. I am interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the "consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all, all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over four years! I would be interested in hearing other viewpoints on this. Especially dissenters who feel my slant of things is without a leg to stand on! I am in the process of compiling a Lexicographical Dictionary on the Heretical Sects of the Pariah and Engnsvanyali Dieties -- entitled Tipika Hereziark'a (Book of the Heresiarchs). It will include linguistic, historical/anecdotal, biographical, and theological information on this intersection of pariah/heretical theology and the more ritualized and hypostatic Engsvanyali theology as received by the modern inhabitants of Tekumel. I hope that this triggers some minute amount of discussion - since Tekumel's theology, history, and (most of all) linguistics are what have fascinated me since 1983 (when I was fifteen). Regards, Alexander Stojanovic -- [Moderators Note: Whew!!! Way to go Alex! Nothing like a bit of nice ] [dinner conversation. ;) ] Chris Davis, Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu *************************************** //3 Professor Barker answers... >From: "Anton Dovydaitis" > >We should all know about clanhouses, but what about other clan >facilities? For example, we now know that the Might of Ganga, >a Very High clan, has transhipping facilities in the awful >town of Setnakh. How is this done? Is there a clanhouse there? >Just a warehouse, with a few clan members residing? There are clan agents who handle grain, cloth, Salarvyani goods, salted meat, pottery, glassware, metalwork, etc. Some of these persons handle more than one type of commodity, others deal with 5-6 items. Whenever a load comes into the warehouse (by boat, by chlen-cart, by slave caffle), the dealers send letters to the relevant forwarders. Might of Ganga does have a small house in Setnakh -- nothing big, but better than some other higher clans, which have none and must rely upon agents. > >In general, how do clans operate in cities that they do not have >a major presence? Do their "poorer" cousins exist to serve their >ealthier brethren, providing transhipping, warehousing, guest >accomodations? On the one hand, I can't imagine The Might of Ganga >aintaining a suitable clanhouse in Setnakh, but on the other, I can't >imagine them sleeping in a hovel either. Clans are often allied to other clans: Golden Sunburst to White Stone to Green ough, etc. Arrangements are made to pay for services back and forth: so much grain for so many loads of tooled leather, so much dried river fish for so many urns of oil, etc. When people travel, they usually inquire about sleeping, etc. facilities along the way. Their clans will then make arrangements in advance: send a writ to a clanhouse in Setnakh, for example, saying that "Our excellent brother so-and-so will be arriving in Setnakh on the 20th of Didom; can you provide him with accommodations? Or fix him up with an acceptable equivlanet?" Anybody too poor or humble to deserve this treatment must stay in whatever shop or dwelling that will have him/her. There are brothels in the town, and one can always arrange to stay in them -- with or without the "extras." Thus, let's suppose a member of Golden Sunburst has to break his journey in Setnakh. His options are: get his clan to arrange in advance for him to stay in one of the better clanhouses in the town; go there and take his chances knocking on doors; write to his clan's business agent or intermediary and get that person to make arrangements; write to the local mayor (Mraduharetokoi); he can take his own servants, tents, and equipment and cook along the way, stopping on the platforms at the base of certain Sakbe Road towers; or -- if he is so minded -- he can stop at one of the numerous brothels and relax! Since there are no "inns" or "hotels" (particularly in a little place like Setnakh) these are his only options. > >Are the ranks of clans always fixed relative to each other in terms >of local power? For example, if The Might of Ganga is the highest >clan in Setnakh, do they dominate the local politics or economy? >r are sometimes lower ranked clans effectively in a better political >or economic position than theoritically higher clans due to the local >situation. No to your first question. A very high clan always gets respect and deference, but it may not dominate the local rconomy at all. Yes, thus, to your second supposition: a lower clan, like "Ewer of Gold Outpouring," for business reasons happens to be powerful in Setnakh. Its members will alwyas show respect to members of clans higher than itself, but when it comes to business, it is not going to be pushed aside. In time, its leaders hope to thrust their clan right up into the ranks of the "Very High" clans by sheer economic pressure. There are lots of intrigues and clever little plots... >More generally, how do clanhouses in different cities, but say, along >the same trade route (so visits are frequent) interact? With courtesy, always basic in the Five Empires. Respect and deference to superiors, courtesy to equals, condescension to inferiors -- and rudeness to any who are outside of the chain. The balance is delicate, and it is best that foreigners allow some Tsolyani friend or host to deal for them until they get used to it. Most of my player characters now understand the "ladder" and act quite decorously. A few still do not. Once in awhile somebody reacts TOO deferentially: e.g. a character addresses a humble peasant as "my lord," much to the latter's puzzlement and suspicion. Oh well... It's always interesting. Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu *************************************** //4 Greetings! I am writing to make a few announcements. First, as of right now, we have 26 members. Not too bad. I expect more memberships as time passes, since I haven't heard from the far reaches of the globe yet, like Australia, etc. In case you didn't know, there is an FTP site, in addition to other(s) that already exist, set up here, called nexus.prin.edu. Currently there are only some graphics on the site. One of which, is a map of the town of Setnakh, a village that has been the subject of much conversation, recently. There will soon be some reprints of Professor Barker's written works. As I am hand typing these in, they will appear slowly, but surely. If anyone wants to help, I would be happy to take submissions. The net books will also be housed here. We are working on the first net book, and things appear to be moving forward. Be sure to check out the graphics directory of the ftp site, for a new, not seen by most of us (I almost keeled over in my chair when I saw it the first time a few weeks ago), full color picture of a Swamp Folk merchant vessel being attacked by Shanu'u. It is gorgeous! Chris -- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu *************************************** //5 A question from Anton to Professor Barker. >I have a question: how do you get to the other side of a Sakbe Road? >Are there gates, or can you only cross at the Guard Towers? >What happens when two Sakbe Roads meet? The Sakbe Roads are solid masonry, except in such places as the swamps around Purdimal, where they are carried on balks of timber. They are thus like the Great Wall of China, with the broadest level usually facing inward, toward the Empire, and the highest (the third) facing outward towards any imagined foe. At intervals there are ponderous towers, usually with entrances and staircases, so that one can go up or down from level to level. Many of these towers also have exits out onto a platform at the base of the tower, where travellers can stay, buy provisions, etc. Some of these platforms also have gateways through the wall, so that chlen-carts, travellers, slave caravans, etc. can move from one side of the great wall to the other. At Setnakh there is a gate in the southern wall tower that permits carts, etc. to unload their cargoes onto wharves where ferries can take them north to the hinterlands across the river -- and vice- versa. To the west, off the map, there is a ramp that allows chlen-carts access to the Sakbe Road from the south, and another "down-ramp" on the north side. These are protected with bastions, etc. since this region lies close to the swamps of the mad Hlutrgu. There are watchtowers and heavier fortifications for this purpose all along the road to Jaikalor, too. Where two Sakbe Roads meet there are usually larger, stronger, and more complex fortifications, gates, ramps, etc. so that traffic can move appropriately. -------- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu *************************************** //6 This is comprised of questions from Anton to Professor Barker, and an add-on, that was sent with the map of Setnakh to be included on our ftp site, nexus.prin.edu from Professor Barker. The map is there, along with the information in this message. (Remember, the ftp site is open from 5:00 PM to 7:00 AM every business night and all day weekends, sorry, it is my work PC.) >1) The Clan of the Ewer of Gold Outpuring: where do THEY fit in Setnakh? > Do they handle or attempt to handle transhipping for other clans? > What is their status and religious afilliations? This clan is rather local in the southeast. It is a medium-medium clan, with a preponderance of members in the sects of Avanthe, Hnalla, Thumis, and their cohorts, but with some Hru'u, Ksarul, and Vimuhla members also. Maybe even a few Sarku people, though I hasve never heard of any. Belkhanu members are rare near Setnakh but are common nearer to Thraya. Yes, it handles transhipping along the Sakbe Roads and the rivers in its area, charging small percentages on loads transferred from one mode of transport to another: ship to chlen-carts, ship to slaves, slaves to carts, etc. It arranges for loading and unloading, guarding, storing, etc. of cargoes. >2) How far from the river and the Sakbe Roads is Setnakh? > Is it right where they all meet? The latter. The Sakbe Road dips southward from the west, then splits, with one branch going along the riverbank to the northeast, and a second branch heading southeast to the Equnoyel River and on to Jaikalor. Setnakh is located in the northern angle of this three-way juncture, on the riverbank, with wharves and docks for ferries over to the secondary roads and fertile plains to the north. If you manage to download the map I sent the Blue Room, you can see what I mean. >3) An imperial presence in Setnakh due the joining of the Sakbe Roads there. > What is that like? Not much of a presence. The Imperium is represented by a town guard a few Road Guards, who live in the Sakbe Road towers. There is a Palace of the Realm building, but it is pretty small and unimportant. The clans administer the place with some efficiency -- business -- and there are no reasons for a big Palace of the Priesthoods, Palace of Foreign Lands, or Palace of Everglorious War. Those are for bigger cities. >4) Who is administrates Setnahk, and what is their clan? The mayor of Setnakh (Mraduharetokoi) is a pleasant old man -- I have detailed his name, clan, and general personality in another letter to the Blue Room. [Moderator's Note: That message appears below this one. ] You'll like him, though his shrewish wife is always a problem at a party. I can fill in other clan memberships and office-bearers as needed. Mostly these people are petty bureaucrats, working hard to fulfill their Skeins as cogs in the great machine. Some of them are interesting, some are dull -- enough for lots of intrigues and adventures. (And then there are stories of the great ancient capital city of Purdanim buried 400 feet down in the alluvial mud a hundred Tsan or more directly north of Setnakh ...) >I notice that most of the clans I thought would be here have no religious >affiliation. What does that mean, how does that work? If the clan does >not provide guidance, how is one's choice made? Do lineages adhere to >religions? Are members of clans with no religious affiliation more >moderate in their beliefs? Religious affiliation in a little town like Setnakh is coincidental, or dependent upon local history. This means little since each member of every clan has SOME religion or other. (Being an atheist on Tekumel is demonstrably not very smart...) Hence, even if one's clan is not religiously fixed, one's own lineage -- or one's personal beliefs -- will usually be so. Members of "religiously fixated" clans, too, may not always belong to the sect of their clan -- a person may be Red Sun and not be Vimuhla, for example, but Avanthe or Hnalla or Thumis! This leads to some prejudice and unpleasantry, especially in the really "hard-core" clans (e.g. Copper Door, Vriddi), but it is possible and is often found. A child generally chooses a religion when growing up, and this sometimes differs from the preferences of his lineage and his direct family. It happenes even on this world: a child of devout Protestant Christian parents may decide to become Greek Orthodox, a Hindu, etc., for purely personal reasons. Same on Tekumel. Religious "moderation" is not concomitant with a clan's lack of sectarian affiliation. It just means that the clan, as a whole, has no single religious belief or sectarian membership. A Sarku worshipper who belongs to Golden Bough, by some quirk of fate and family history, may be just as devoted to his wormy deity as any member of Open Sepulchre. Clans, lineages, and families all share in the "guidance" of a child and may try to steer him/her into a particular sect. Some are just stubborn, however, while others claim to know better. It is no easier on Tekumel than it is on Earth. [Moderator's note: This marks a comment by Professor Barker about the ] [map of Setnakh he sent for inclusion on our ftp site. Be sure to check] [it out. ] There is lots more to say about Setnakh -- e.g. the great Chlen barns and "transient" slave pens (for travelling caravans) are NOT in the town itself but off the map to the west, along the top of the rise that lies between the Rananga and Equnoyel Rivers. There are few clanhouses out there (due to the stench), e.g. those concerned with trnasport: Woven Whip (leather and Chlen-hide) and Turning Wheel (transport). Round Rock has small farms/clanhouses all around the rural parts of this region. Wicker Image and Black Mat (two very low clans) see to the removal of offal from the town -- disposal into the river is not allowed, and garbage is taken out to be spread onto the fields in heavy carts. The Rananga here is about 500 feet wide in flood season (spring and early summer); it goes down to a mere 20-50 feet in the hottest months of summer and averages about 200 feet wide in the rest of the year, with depths ranging from 20 feet to only 5 or 6 -- not navigable by any but flat-bottomed skiffs. The land slopes away to the north, and hence the floods widen the river to the north of the town and do not reach up into the town very often. The town itself sits on a steep bank (reinforced with dikes) of aout 15-18 feet in height. Floods do occur, of course, and everybody then takes the Sakbe roads to higher ground -- the region between the two rivers rises to elevations of 50-100 feet above sea- level, and there are some pretty villas and farms up there. The present Mraduharetokoi (Mayor) of Setnakh is a pleasant old bureaucrat: Miyesu hiMayka, of the Amber Cloak Clan. He's about 55, stout, affable, bald, smooth faced and beardless as a baby, and worships Lord Qon. He had hoped for promotion to bigger and better posts, but he is neither very smart nor well- connected. He spends his days in the Palace of the Realm (see the map, upper left side), playing Den-den with his cronies, collecting bribes, and keeping the town's ragged little band of bureaucrats together. He has quarters near the Palace of the Realm, in the Administrative Building there, and his two wives and 6 kids are a terror to his staff of 5 scribes and 3 servants. He has a "police force" of 20 city guards who live here and there abbout the town. This is reinforced by 50 Imperial road guards, who mostly live in the three Sakbe Road towers shown on the map. The Captain of these guards is one of Miyesu's friends, a short, wiry-haired, bandy-legged officer named Bolon hiSiranul, from the southern coast near Jakalla. He is also a Qon worshipper. I can supply the names and details of other residents of Setnakh if needed. -- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu *************************************** //7 [Moderator's Note: Tekunu (Alan) writes...] This is from the Onchash Chairon Module I am working on for Dr. Barker: Accelerators Fifteen hundred years ago a generation of shamans migrated to the temples of Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe from the uncivilized portions of western and central Salarvya and also from the then primitive areas of Tsolyanu. Although this movement represented a major migration of shamans, a few years after their arrival a smaller group of shamans disgruntled at the temples of Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe detached themselves and went to the Temple of Thumis. Within twenty years most of the shaman left the temples where they were learning and returned to their native villages. Each of the temples that the shamans studied at helped contributed to the shamans knowledge. Avanthe was similar to the totemistic principles of the magicorelirious obligations and helped to sharpen their perception of the real world. Belkhanu gave them the ability to explore in detail the spirit world. Thumis allowed them to record and pass on information accurately. And last, the Ksarul proteges learned a system of magical squares and numerology to set tablets of common understanding. Upon their return it was generally discovered that an imperfect transfer of knowledge had taken place from the four temples and the shamans. Avanthe worship was close enough to their own tribal knowledge that it was absorbed. Belkhanu was used as secret knowledge for the spirit traveller and became a hidden ritual of the shamans. Information from the temple of Thumis was maintained at a higher level than the other because it was brought back written on the tablets. Ksarul worship provided the foundation of magic squares and numerology that would prove useful later in the formation of sidils for the use in accelerator magic. When the shamans returned to their tribes they found that they were no longer able to integrate. They were not truly part of that culture and yet they were not truly Tsolyani either. Because of the changes in themselves and their perspective, for the most part they chose to live outside of their villages as hermits. They lived solitary lives and were usually fixed to one location. Through the use of the spirit souls they would then explore these areas and determine the exact makeup of the component pieces of that area. It was after this stage in the evolution of these shamans that the great schism started. The shamans began to polarize into two groups that had conflicting views of how the knowledge that they had learned was to be used. The larger group was called the Escorts of Germination (Germinators) and they were fundamentally against interference and intervention in natural processes and also held to the tenet of simply standing aside, watching, observing and guarding against unnatural intervention their surroundings. Nonintervention was their strict policy. The other, smaller group was called The Accelerators and they were striving for the use of the powers they had learned which could accelerate the natural processes. To this end they felt intervention was necessary in the natural process. With such a disparate conflict of fundamental goals, the two groups split and the Accelerators were driven from the community. The Accelerators went to the cities and hired out as mercenary wizards. Due to the different nature of their magic, they were highly successful. At this point Germinators began a campaign of discredit against the Accelerators. Due to their efforts and with the aide of the temples who also feared the Accelerators, the general populace began to fear the Accelerators. The Accelerators were termed blasphemous. Nobles who hired them found they would have unrest on their hands, the temples would shun them and they would face sanctions, so subsequently they stopped hiring Accelerators. This persecution soon turned into open war between the Accelerators and the Germinators. Soon the conflict became more of a 'witch hunt' with the Germinators searching for the Accelerators and the Accelerators running and hiding. The Accelerators before they were totally exterminated were contacted by a certain wizard named Matallja. (A member of the College of Wizards). He required their services to help straighten out the Unstraightened City. The Unstraightened City is apparently laid out in orderly blocks. Once within the city, the blocks lead in every direction. Beneath the block are large sigils. These sigils are unstraightened, hence the disorder. The sigils are larger versions of the sigils on the Onchash Chaironi. (Onchash Chairon is in the Southern Continent and I have about a 50 page Source Book that I am working on). If straightened the sigils could provide unlimited power. The Accelerators wish to protect the Crater of the Unstraightened City because it is through the city that the interplaner power gets through to Tekemul. With control of the Unstraightened City the Accelerators hope to build up power to bring about changes on Tekemul. This will be affected by the guiding of the universe of Tekemul through to planes of vast power. Although this is really Metallja's goal, the Accelerators have also taken up the cause. Arrayed against them are powerful enemies. Due to the nature of the Unstraightened City, the Germinators wish to have it removed from this plane. The deities of Pavar do not look kindly upon their actions. The Silver Suits (powerful creatures that wear some sort of power armor. They are almost unstopable, have powerful technological weaponry, impervious to magic and are relentless in their pursuit through the plains once they decide to get you) wish to stop them, along with every creature that exists on multiple planes as they could no longer exist if Metallja is successful. The College of Wizards has remained neutral except for Metallja. With the help of Metallja the Accelerators became the secret ruling elite of the City of the Clanless. Outside of a few major strongholds, such as the City of the Clanless, Onchash Chairon and the Unstraightened City, the Accelerators function only in small groups or singly. The Germinators have several important enclaves of which Baiyarsha is one. There is also a hidden base of the Germinators somewhere in the northern hemisphere. The Germinators have come to Onchash Chairon several times and have been defeated. The struggle is still very active. Basic screening, indoctrination and training is conducted at the City of the Clanless. Trips are often taken to other far away cities on Tekumel because they are usually a ganglia of nexus points and the like. The City of Glass was just one spot among many that we travelled to. I imagine we were there to go somewhere else, or to escape Silver Suits or something like that. As to Mihalli, you usually find them in these areas, because they do exist simultaneously on several planes at the same time. There is also a rumour of the Mighty Fortress, a legend that states that there is a fortress out of space and time that is occupied by Accelerators. There is no bridge to get there. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //8 [Moderator's Note: Mike from across the pond writes in response to Alex's] [message (#2) covering Pariah Heresiology ] Bear in mind, if you are writing 'revisionist' Tekumel history, that several factors exist on the Professor's world that do not apply on the so-called real world. Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. These are objective facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. All this tends to clamp down on human urges to syncreatism. That said the people of Tekumel can only see those parts of the trans- dimensional beings they worship which mortal minds can appreciate and perceive. There may be aspects of these beings that Tekumel never sees. And just as the Tsolyani can't rewrite the nature of these beings they can't rewrite the instincts and social urges of their mortal followers. To realise their ends (whatever they may be) they have to use the mortal minds and purposes of their followers. So we might speculate that Avanthe has little or no real interest in agriculture except as it reflects a stable set of spiritual values. (Or maybe she doesn't give a toss about spiritual values and the whole Temple is a vast conspiracy to produce more animal waste products: what do I know about the motivations of gods?) But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be..... -- Mike Cule ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //9 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker adds to Tekunu's message...] > >This is from the Onchash Chairon Module I am working on for Dr. Barker: >Accelerators Fifteen hundred years ago a generation of shamans migrated to >the temples of Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe from the uncivilized portions >of western and central Salarvya and also from the then primitive areas of >Tsolyanu. Although this movement represented a major migration of shamans, >a few years after their arrival a smaller group of shamans disgruntled at the >temples of Ksarul, Belkhanu and Avanthe detached themselves and went to the >Temple of Thumis. Within twenty years most of the shaman left the temples >where they were learning and returned to their native villages. This is all quite factual, though seen through the intervening mists of history. In reality, the shamans of the eastern lands had been migrating slowly for many centuries before this. The migrations described here were connected with the schism that brought about the Standing Alone of the Goddess: the establishment of the Temple of Lady Shiringgayi as the single major aspect of BOTH Avanthe and Dlamelish in the East. >Each of the temples that the shamans studied at helped contributed to the >shamans knowledge. Avanthe was similar to the totemistic principles of the >magicorelirious obligations and helped to sharpen their perception of the >real world. Belkhanu gave them the ability to explore in detail the spirit >world. Thumis allowed them to record and pass on information accurately. >And last, the Ksarul proteges learned a system of magical squares and >numerology to set tablets of common understanding. >Upon their return it was generally discovered that an imperfect transfer of >knowledge had taken place from the four temples and the shamans. Avanthe >worship was close enough to their own tribal knowledge that it was absorbed. >Belkhanu was used as secret knowledge for the spirit traveller and became a >hidden ritual of the shamans. Information from the temple of Thumis was >maintained at a higher level than the other because it was brought back >written on the tablets. Ksarul worship provided the foundation of magic >squares and numerology that would prove useful later in the formation of >sigils for the use in accelerator magic. All essentially correct. The use of "sigils" in magic is an ancient practice, dating back to Sunuz and Zna'ye texts used along the southern coasts as sorcerous guides for the sects of the Pariah Deities. These texts are largely lost and gone now. >When the shamans returned to their tribes they found that they were no >longer able to integrate. They were not truly part of that culture and yet >they were not truly Tsolyani [or Salarvyani] either. Because of the changes >in themselves and their perspective, for the most part they chose to live >outside of their villages as hermits. They lived solitary lives and were >usually fixed to one location. Through the use of the spirit souls they >would then explore these areas and determine the exact makeup of the >component pieces of that area. >It was after this stage in the evolution of these shamans that the great >schism started. The shamans began to polarize into two groups that had >conflicting views of how the knowledge that they had learned was to be used. >The larger group was called the Escorts of Germination (Germinators) and >they were fundamentally against interference and intervention in natural >processes and also held to the tenet of simply standing aside, watching, >observing and guarding against unnatural intervention their surroundings. >Nonintervention was their strict policy. The other, smaller group was >called The Accelerators and they were striving for the use of the powers they >had learned which could accelerate the natural processes. To this end they >felt intervention was necessary in the natural process. >With such a disparate conflict of fundamental goals, the two groups split >and the Accelerators were driven from the community. The Accelerators went to >the cities and hired out as mercenary wizards. Due to the different nature >of their magic, they were highly successful. At this point Germinators began >a campaign of discredit against the Accelerators. Due to their efforts and >with the aid of the temples who also feared the Accelerators, the general >populace began to fear the Accelerators. The Accelerators were termed >blasphemous. Nobles who hired them found they would have unrest on their >hands, the temples would shun them and they would face sanctions, so >subsequently they stopped hiring Accelerators. All true. The Accelerators were hounded and persecuted. This was not a pleasant period on Tekumel. The great Engsvanyali Empire had crumbled, and the chaotic political situation allowed for the growth of the clans and military forces that brought about the Second Imperium. In Tsolyanu this was the period of the civil war that occurred after the mysterious and horrid death of Emperor Nriga Gagchike "The Spider" (ruled 984-101 A.S.). In Salarvya the local nobility of the cities was similarly fragmented, paranoid, and terrified of "secret sorceries" of the Shamans of the Forests. >This persecution soon turned into open war between the Accelerators and the >Germinators. Soon the conflict became more of a 'witch hunt' with the >Germinators searching for the Accelerators and the Accelerators running and >hiding. The Accelerators before they were totally exterminated were >contacted by a certain wizard named Metallja. (A member of the College of >Wizards). He required their services to help straighten out the >Unstraightened City. The spelling of his name is M_e_tallja, not Matallja. Otherwise this is correct. [Moderator's note: Oops, I missed the first one! Sorry. He spelled it ] [correctly in subsequent paragraphs. ] His antecedents and early history are the subjects of legend and also of certain epic poems that can only be purely mythological. He is said to have left Salarvya to travel through the deserts of the Plains of Glass to the Unstraightened City. All of this requires a couple of books by itself! >The Unstraightened City is apparently laid out in orderly blocks. Once >within the city, the blocks lead in every direction. Beneath the block are >large sigils. These sigils are unstraightened, hence the disorder. The >sigils are larger versions of the sigils on the Onchash Chaironi. (Onchash >Chairon is in the Southern Continent and I have about a 50 page Source Book >that I am working on). If straightened the sigils could provide unlimited >power. Quite correct. Here, like the stem in an apple, the force fields and interplanar distortions that rule Tekumel come together. The Planes here are twisted and interlocked: as one traveller said, "Your feet are going one way on one Plane, and your head is looking out into black space on another -- and unseen creatures are grasping your hands and pinching your rear from several other Planes." This is a terribly complex and unpredictable place. Metallja stayed here long enough to learn as much about it as a human can know, mostly with the help of the Mihalli, who can live here quite comfortably. >The Accelerators wish to protect the Crater of the Unstraightened City >because it is through the city that the interplaner power gets through to >Tekemul. With control of the Unstraightened City the Accelerators hope to >build up power to bring about changes on Tekumel. This will be effected by >the guiding of the universe of Tekumel through to planes of vast power. >Although this is really Metallja's goal, the Accelerators have also taken up >the cause. Arrayed against them are powerful enemies. Due to the nature of >the Unstraightened City, the Germinators wish to have it removed from this >plane. The deities of Pavar do not look kindly upon their actions. One can easily guess why. >The Silver Suits are powerful other-planar creatures that wear some sort of >power armor. They are almost unstoppable, have powerful technological >weaponry, are impervious to magic and are relentless in their pursuit >through the plains once they decide to get you. They want to destroy the >Unstraightened City and stop Metallja and his little band, along with every >other opponnent on a myriad Planes. They can no longer exist if Metallja is >successful. The College of Wizards has remained neutral except for Metallja. One of these days I will try to find the time and energy to describe the College of Wizards at the End of Time. This is complex and is unnecessary to those who are satisfied to stay on "normal" Tekumel. >With the help of Metallja the Accelerators became the secret ruling elite of >the City of the Clanless. Outside of a few major strongholds, such as the >City of the Clanless, Onchash Chairon and the Unstraightened City, the >Accelerators function only in small groups or singly. The Germinators have >several important enclaves of which Bayarsha is one. Ask players who have somehow travelled there! >There is also a hidden base of the Germinators somewhere in the northern >hemisphere. The Germinators have come to Onchash Chairon several times >and have been defeated. The struggle is still very active. Basic screening, >indoctrination and training is conducted at the City of the Clanless. Trips >are often taken to other far away cities on Tekumel because they are usually a >ganglia of nexus points and the like. The City of Glass was just one spot >among many that we travelled to. I imagine we were there to go somewhere >else, or to escape Silver Suits or something like that. As to Mihalli, >you usually find them in these areas, because they do exist simultaneously >on several planes at the same time. >There is also a rumour of the Mighty Fortress, a legend that states that there >is a fortress out of space and time that is occupied by Accelerators. There is >no bridge to get there. All of this is basically true. Onchash Chairan and the Accelerators formed a major thrust of one of our long adventures that lasted for a couple of years of earth time. The complexities of Tekumel are many. I wish Lord Tekunu well in setting forth his description of Onchash Chairan and its strange culture. Those who dare to travel the deadly deserts of the equatorial continent south of Tsolyanu can try to reach Onchash Chairan and see for themselves. ------ Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //10 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Mike's message. ] >Mike from across the pond writes in response to Alex's >message (#2) covering Pariah Heresiology > >Bear in mind, if you are writing 'revisionist' Tekumel history, that several >factors exist on the Professor's world that do not apply on the so-called real >world. > >Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and >verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all >the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they >worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an >impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. These are >objective facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. All >this tends to clamp down on human urges to syncretism. Mike is correct. "Gods" on Tekumel may not intervene all that often in human life and events, but the temples SAY they do, and the temple priesthoods have elaborate corpora of sorcery and doctrine to make their followers believe it. >That said, the people of Tekumel can only see those parts of the trans- >dimensional beings they worship which mortal minds can appreciate and >perceive. There may be aspects of these beings that Tekumel never sees. And >just as the Tsolyani can't rewrite the nature of these beings they can't >rewrite the instincts and social urges of their mortal followers. To realise >their ends (whatever they may be) they have to use the mortal minds and >purposes of their followers. So we might speculate that Avanthe has little >or no real interest in agriculture except as it reflects a stable set of >spiritual values. (Or maybe she doesn't give a toss about spiritual values >and the whole Temple is a vast conspiracy to produce more animal waste >products: what do I know about the motivations of gods?) Careful, Mike -- she may be listening! > >But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods >and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed >likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be..... "Revisionist" Tekumel theology is interesting, although perhaps the priesthoods of Tsolyanu might find it heretical -- or nonsense. Dig, dig, dig! You wouldn't want me to just up and blat it out, would you? It's more fun to dig until you find it. I should tell you that much of Tekumel's "mystery" has now come to light through the determined efforts of dozens of gamers like yourselves, but there are still some very large secrets undiscovered, adventures unfinished, and ideas unexplored. ---------- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu [Moderator's note: Wow, What a day! ] //11 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Alex's massive posting,] [ but also an excellent posting, from last night ] >List Member Alex Stojanovic writes: > >Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts > >(This is meant as a stimulus to discussion, not as an authoritative >disposition of any of these themes! - Alexander) > >I an interested in disentangling the relationship between the orthodox >Engsvanyali Pantheon (Pavar's Tlomitlanyal/Tlokiriqaluyal) and the Heredox >sects centered around the Pariah Dieties (The Goddess of the Pale Bone, The >One Other, and The One Who Is). Basically, I postulate a much "closer" >connexion between the theological-mythological orthodoxy and the cthnonic >Pariah Dieties than has previously been suggested. I will further suggest >that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of >Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers' >rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the >heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleaned from the worship of the Old >Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah >Dieties. It must be remembered that the complex orthodoxy relating to Aspect >Theology on Tekumel -- i.e. which God does a specific "aspect" belong to -- >is largely a matter of historical, economic, and social expediency. A >Worshipper of Ksarul may claim, and have huge amounts of precedent to back >him up, that Nirisepugallukh (The Blue Shadow) is an aspect of Lord Ksarul >dating back from the Bednalljan Period. But I wonder... what if the Blue >Shadow aspect was an amalgamation of The One Other and primitive "Ksarul >Worship", just for argument's sake. What if the Blue Shadow aspect >represents a co-opting by orthodoxy (The Pavar descendents) of >faiths/beliefs/ and knowledge more appropriately attributed to one/more of >the Pariah Dieties??? The question raises itself: how did the orthodox >theologians such as Pavar "learn" about the Pariah Dieties? Answer: they >were probably worhsippers of these dieties themseleves, and were "converted >by the sword" to the "new faith"! The priesthoods will quickly admit that this has indeed happened, historically. Various ancient deities have become syncretically amalgamated into the personae of the 20 deities of Pavar's pantheon. I think I could delve around and come up with a few Bednalljan deities that did not survive Pavar's revolution -- but which "resurfaced" later as "Aspects" of conceptually-related deities in Pavar's theology. This is similar to developments on earth: e.g. the Great Goddess of ancient Europe and the devotion to the Virgin Mary, the saints of Catholicism and the gods of prehispanic Mexico. I can dredge up all sorts of comparisons with Hinduism and other religions as well. As for conversion "by the sword," I tend to doubt there was a lot of that. Most conversion en-masse seems more due to economics and political opportunism. >What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a >situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the >One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the >mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of >Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in >the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] Although their numbers have always >been small, they have "infiltrated" the orthodox religious institutions over >the course of centuries. Guiding (by way of "small" alterations in the >rituals and beliefs of these faiths, assassination, intrigue, and cunning) >the orthodox religions to "move" more toward the "True Faith" (in their >eyes). The wolf in the center of the fold! Much of Tekumel, from my >perspective, is focused around that sort of imbricated intrigue -- a >volatile and unstable view even more than the standard "Secret Societies" >(like the Refulgent Blue Curtain Society (Ksarul), or the Order of Argent >(Chegarra)). The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes, >only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could >be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane! You have hit one of the myriad nails rather close to the head. I can offer a lot more examples: e.g. that of Metallja and the sect of the Blasphemous Accelerators. See the submission to the Blue Room by Lord Tekunu hiQolyelmu of the Clan of the Golden Sunburst. The secret citadel of Onchash Chairan rather parallels the sect started by Ssraminesh mra Kutaya. [By the bye, how did you happen upon Ssraminesh? Did I mention him to you? It's too much to imagine that you coincidentally came upon him by yourself!] >I know what you're thinking -- Christ -- where is he getting this rubbish! >Everybody "knows" that Tekumel's dieties are "really" just superpowerful >beings way beyond their worshippers on the cosmic power scale! It's >"madness" to speculate of their motives! Where is this "abstruse" >theological meandering going! The Scrolls of Pavar "clearly" state this >(look at the Sourcebook for references, or the Book of Ebon Bindings)!!! I >am suggesting that a slightly "deeper" look be taken at the "historical >record" provided by Pavar and others after him... > >But what if the dieties are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic >entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their >worshippers? These cookie-cutter deities "representing" some elemental >attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge, >apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting. Hmm. You are closer than you think. The real thinkers of Tekumel are also not satisfied with "cookie-cutter deities." Unfortunately, such creations tend to satisfy millions of average worshippers. Go listen to the sermons in almost any "average" Christian church -- or Muslim mosque, etc. etc. There is much more to the cookie than what comes out of the cutter... > >[Slight rant: The ethnologist George Dumezeil, in his classical study, >Mitra/Varuna, showed the historical / transformation/ development/ >assimilation process underlying much of what we call our "modern" faiths. He >found a mythological matrix, based on the Indo-Iranian Dieities of Mitra and >Varuna -- which was applied, mutated, transformed beyond recognition, until >you got something like St. Valentine's Day arising out of the cthonic >"Underworld rituals" of the Lupercalia! Talk about a twisted and complex >incubation of new "religious"/societal forms.] You are correct. The syncretic process in India (and Tekumel) continues throughout history unabated. Study the development of the "gods" in ancient Egypt. This process is active in Tekumelani life at various levels of complexity, depending upon the social, educational, and economic levels of the people concerned. > >My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an >"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities. >Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated >over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate >Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive Pariah cults have always been in the >"center" of Tekumelyani societies - guiding the course of events like >puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special" >knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for >the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic >frenzy of liberation and obliteration. Don't give all the secrets of Tekumel away, dammit! There are hints and clues to the powers of these sects in various places in Tekumel literature. Watch for the signposts pointing to Coming Events... >But where would one look to find support for such a theory. Let's start with >Ksarul, my favorite Engsvanyali diety. I have always found the "Story" of >Lord Ksarul's Banishment/Imprisonment, as recounted in the classical sources >(Lament to the Wheel of Black - Engsvanyali Recension), suspiciously like a >piece of "theological revisionism". Just as the advent of Classical Islam >brought about a recasting of more cthonic myths and beliefs (Djinns, Demons, >etc.) in light of the "approved party line", perhaps a similar curent >overtook the Pariah Dieities. One can always look at Jesus as a retelling of the Osiris myth of death and resurrection. Remember, Jesus went down into Egypt -- and Paul did not stay in Jerusalem long but headed down into Egypt when he arrived after Jesus' apparent death. As for classical Islam, one can indeed speak of the insertion of Jinn, the stories of earlier Prophets (Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc.), and all sorts of local Arab customs into the religious matrix, but the ironclad monotheism of Allah is NOT part of pre-Islamic Arabia. Was it essentially a copy of the Yahveh of the Jews, bypassing the Jesiolatry of the Christian sects of the Prophet's day, or was it a continuation of the monotheistic tradition continuing right down from Adam through Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, as the Prophet Muhammad said it was? >Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle >of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of >myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah >Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern >"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished", >both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who >"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!) This doesn't ring quite true. Ksarul is clearly different in both nature and mythologiy/theology from the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Their goals are different, too, if one follows the Inner Texts. >Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah >Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled" >upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? Probably the Pariah Deities were indeed "pre-Pavar" and even"pre-Ksarul" in his Bednalljan form. I could dig up the history of the Pariah sects, but ensuing generations have so tinged all of their opponents with "horror" and "revulsion" that few know of their existence at all. You won't find any more in Tsolyani schoolbooks on the Pariah Deities than you will find about Islam in American kids' literature. The Index of the Inquisition is fairly inefficient compared to the Palace of the Priesthoods in Bey Su, which has seen to the sequestering of ANYTHING relating to the Pariah Deities to the "locked stacks." >Enquiring minds want to know! I suggest that the banishment/imprisonment/return >pattern of Ksarul is a prolepsis (foretelling) of the "return of the Pariah >Dieties" -- an impending big Shootout at the OK Corral/Gotterdammerung which >will (on a mythological/symbolic level) represent a closure/repetition of the >"Divine Time". The Twilight/Doom of the Gods fortold in a legend which, >ostensibly, is about a distant episode in Tekumel's "mythic" past in the Battle >of Dormoron Plain. I really like that! You are welcome to your opinion. You may be correct... >Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search >Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the >nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent >generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological consolidation. >That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to >maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted >themselves over the next centuries? The One Oher did "help" to vanquish >Ksarul -- "why" he did so remains a considerable point of dispute. But then, >as sources relate, the worship of this diety was proscribed, the worshippers >slaughtered, the temples razed, and all records striken.. Or were they? The >Livyani have always been "secretive" about their faith on the Shadows Gods. >What secrets really "lurk" in the Secret City of Dlash -- and what about >that city in Livyanu NAMED AFTER A SECRET ARGOT OF THE PARIAH DIETIES -- >SUNUZ??? Mere phonological coincidence? I don't think so! Again, you could be correct. You are certainly subtle enough to be a Tekumelani yourself! Anybody VISIT the town of Sunuz recently? Maybe this would provide a good adventure -- in a recently plague-ridden land now occupied by Mu'ugalavyani troops... >My interest in the Pariah Dieties arose out some research and development of >the "languages" of these heretical sects/religions (Zna'ye, Sunuz, Ai Che). >I have always maintained that Duruob is linguistically related to Sunuz -- >again the Livyani connection. Sunuz is not genetically related to Duru'ob, but there are CLOSE connections. Zna'ye and Ai Che are linguistically from totally different families, but there are theological and conceptual relationships that deserve exploring. >How about Llyani -- which was codified and >used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were >transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar >sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable! Don't be too harsh on him. He did manage a reasonable amalgamation of the data - - and he solved a lot of theological inconsistencies that had been bothering the scholars of the First Imperium. >I think >modern Tekumelyani society is a "bit too accomodating" of Pavar's theology. >What did Pavar base his insights on? The Sourcebook only mentions that he >made contact with several more of the "Gods" (We have only historical >tradition to prove that the Names/Entities mentioned in the Scrolls refer to >the modern pantheon!) As in classical Hellenistic society, with its ten or >so different "Zeus" figures (they later got amalgamated into one >"Super-Zeus"), Pavar's writing should be taken with a bit of >historical/ethnological distrust. OK - you can summon the "Gods" or their >minions -- but what does that prove about their identity? Nothing. I know >several will point out the immense disinterest on Modern Tekumelyani to >engage in theological disputation, but that is really beside the point. I am >interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in >Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the >"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all, >all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative >underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over >four years! You are certainly welcome to investigate this part of Tekumelani religion. If you can find out more about the Pariah Deities, I should be very interested to see it. Tsolyani history and scholarship is NOT interested (openly) in the Pariah Deities, as said above, but there are a few scholars here and there. >I would be interested in hearing other viewpoints on this. Especially >dissenters who feel my slant of things is without a leg to stand on! >I am in the process of compiling a Lexicographical Dictionary on the >Heretical Sects of the Pariah and Engnsvanyali Dieties -- entitled Tipika >Hereziark'a (Book of the Heresiarchs). It will include linguistic, >historical/anecdotal, biographical, and theological information on this >intersection of pariah/heretical theology and the more ritualized and >hypostatic Engsvanyali theology as received by the modern inhabitants of >Tekumel. I hope that this triggers some minute amount of discussion - since >Tekumel's theology, history, and (most of all) linguistics are what have >fascinated me since 1983 (when I was fifteen). I can't guarantee that your book will work as "real" Tekumel. But it will certainly be interesting, even if purely heretical. You might make a pilgrimage to the city of Hmakuyal; there are scholars there with interests like yours. Ask for a scholar-priest named Deragu hiFershena. He may be there or in Bey Su. He has ideas about the Pariah Deities that mesh with yours in some ways. Dinner conversation, Chris? Anybody still hungry? ------ Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu [Moderator's Note: Yes, Professor, in this case it is good dinner ] [ conversation. It is now 7:15 and I have only ] [ eaten a sandwich all day. You guys are keeping] [ me way too busy! :) I think I'll go offline ] [ for a few hours. Great Work Everyone! ] //12 [Moderator's Note: Karl asks a question about other religions in Setnakh ] [ and Professor Barker responds. ] There is not much presence of any _organised_ Dilinala, Dlamelish, or Hrihayal activity in Setnakh. The whole area is rather solidly Avanthe, Hnalla, and Thumis (and their Cohorts), with some Belkhanu/Qon and sprinklings of Karakan/ Chegarra, Sarku/Durritlamish, and Salarvyani immigrants who worship Lady Shiringgayyi. I think there is a small group of Dilinala worshippers (5-10) in the agricultural-administrative section of the Governor's staff, and I am sure there are Dlamelish/Hrihayal worshippers in the brothels and also in the White Stone clanhouse. The latter are persons of some quality, mostly from Jakalla and involved with the cloth trade. They have a small shrine and perform the rudiments of the rituals for the Two Ladies. If you are looking for really intricate Dlamelish/Hrihayal rituals, you must go on to Jakalla. Visitors to Setnakh who serve these deities must either perform their rituals by themselves, or else ask around until they can be directed to the White Stone clanhouse, where they are usually invited to join in the local observances. There are also no nonhuman houses _per_ _se_ in Setnakh. It is too small for such urban frills. Ahoggya visitors to the town usually rent tents and buy provisions outside the town (south of the main southern gate); there is a Pe Choi family resident in the town (to the west of the White Stone clanhouse), and they take in occasional Pe Choi merchants, etc. Larger parties must quarter outside the town, of course. I think the same is true for the rare Hlaka who stops here; most of these flyers go straight on to Jakalla or else camp in one of the glades along the ridge between the two rivers to the west. ---- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //13 [Moderator's Note: Alex elaborates on the replies he received from Mike ] [ and Professor Barker. ] Here are some replies to the constructive input I received in regard to the topic of Pariah Heresiology from Mike Cule and Professor Barker. I would like to make some small comment on both of the replies posted. I hope this is not consuming too much bandwidth. [Note: I greatly appreciated the input! I would love to hear from others as well.] [Moderator's note: Alex, you are not consuming too much bandwidth! Keep ] [ em coming! Ignore my dinner conversation comments :) ] >>Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts [from Mike Cule's letter] >>Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and >>verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all >>the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they >>worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an >>impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. I do not dispute this synopsis of the orthodox theological position. It was made very persuasivley by a Mriyan in the Temple of Ksarul (cf: Preface to the Book of Ebon Bindings) However, I believe it is (1) fascinating and (2) great fodder for thinking about Tekumel to consider a view of Tekumel's history through the prism/optic of the Pariah Dieties and their cults. Syncretism(sp?) and revisionism are prime forces in the molding of social history/beliefs -- and the viewpoint that Pavar (and the Engsvanyali PriestKings) brought to Tekumel is a legitimate, but perhaps limited, one. >>These are objective >>facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. I have to disagree here slightly. The amalgamation process evinced by the development of the orthodox canon (in both its doxology, mythology, and eschatology (a whole lot 'o 'logies'!) would suggest that human whims and social pressures have had a major impact on the "view" of the Gods. A case in point is Lord Hrsh, the major Mu'ugalavyani Diety. The Mu'ugalavyani recension of the Lament to the Wheel of Black is replete with mentions of Hrsh's activities in the "God Time", yet the classical Engsvanyali recension fails to mention him at all. Now, realise that epic poetry, myths, and song-cycles are amoung the most prominent ways of dessemination of what I call "doxology" -- and you see exactly where and how social pressures/expediencies come into play. Let's face it, the majority of Tekumel's inhabitants never receive formal education/religious training/theological indoctrination -- they grow up. live, and die emeshed in the myths and stories "in general circulation". (They get their "religion" from epic cycles like the Epic of Na'Inverge, not from ecclessiatical treatises.) A Parallel development to Lord Hrsh is the Salarvyani Lady Shiringgayi (sp?) -- viewed by Tsolyani sophisticates/theologians as an "amalgam" of aspects of Avanthe and Dlamelish. But from the perspective of worshippers of Lady S. -- she is her "own" being/essence -- they do not parse her down into finer "ontological" categories. What "currents" flowed together to forge this unique Diety (Lady S)? That is the purpose of "heresiology" in my sense -- to bring those currents to the surface, and to highlight the marginal/mutant "micro-histories" that escape the big, standard treaties, pandects, codicils, tomes, etc. Much of the "formative matter" of Christianity can be found in the "heretical writings" of the Nag Hammadi library -- writings which were there at the "origin" of Christianity (offering a competing vision/theology/symbology) - but which were (in this case) ruthlessly suppressed/proscribed/banned/etc. What I would like to produce (perhaps with the aid of other like-minded souls) is a "secret history" of Tekumel -- filling in those gaps left out by the PriestKings and their decendents! Hence, the Tipika Hereziark'a. For each king, a heresiarch! I think that would bring out the "logic" of Tekumel's history out even better than a one-sided/orthodox account. [Note: I readily acknowledge the possibility of multiple "orthodoxies" -- Hrsh worship, the Shadow Gods, Lady Shirringgayi, the Shen Dieties, etc.] My point is this: far from eliminating syncretism, the present "relationship" of the people of Tekumel to "their" gods is highly syncretic. My purpose is to take the rich tapestry apart -- to find the intricate threads that have been woven into the orthodoxy of the Five Empires. The Pariah Dieities (and their cults/sects) appear to be a point-of-entry (hence the Book of the Heresiarchs...) Otherwise, thanks Mike. I hope to hear from you again on these topics! >>But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods >>and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed >>likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be..... I would love to have a more serious/extensive discussion of the "Great Mystery". I realize that over-analysis could easily neutralize the ethos and wonder of Tekumel, but some elaboration on the College of Wizards, the "Egg of the World", and allied mysteries is in order. [Professor Barker's reply (much appreciated)] >>I will further suggest >>that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of >>Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers' >>rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the >>heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleaned from the worship of the Old >>Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah >>Dieties. >The priesthoods will quickly admit that this has indeed happened, historically. >Various ancient deities have become syncretically amalgamated into the personae >of the 20 deities of Pavar's pantheon. I think I could delve around and come up >with a few Bednalljan deities that did not survive Pavar's revolution -- but >which "resurfaced" later as "Aspects" of conceptually-related deities in >Pavar's theology. Great! This is exactly what I was driving at. Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa of the Temple of Ksarul at Urmish, prior to his mysterious disappearance in 2365 AS, was researching the foundations of early Ksarul worship in the southeast of modern day Tsolyanu (in the area of Salarvya conjectured to be the site of ancient Purdanim). His treatise on Ai Che and Zna'ye (The Codicil of the Blue King in Glory) (officially repressed by factions within the Temple) was the beginning of a study of the influence of certain "unmentionable" Dieties in the initial/nascent development of the worship of Ksarul. Specifically, the "methodology" for contacting the God/and his minions and the secret (inner) doctrines surrounding his "legendary battle" with the other gods. Things are not as simple as the Lament to the Wheel of Black would put it. The "hidden symbology" of Ksarul, known only to the highest ranks of the faithful, paints a more mysterious view of this "Rebel of the Gods". Tsemel Ni'ur's research was, in part, an attempted explanation/description of the mythico-theological roots these inherited "inner mysteries". Unfortunately this research has been buried since his disappearance....and several of his closest friends has also met with "accidents" since then (both within Tsolyanu and abroad). I hope to include an excerpt from his writings in the Book of the Heresiarchs. >As for conversion "by the sword," I tend to doubt there was a lot of that. Most >conversion en-masse seems more due to economics and political opportunism. I would agree entirely -- except that I think all three factors were strongly in play. The War between Vimulha and Ksarul worshippers is a case in point (I hope) of mass conversion (or attempted conversion...) under extreme political and social duress. >>What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a >>situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the >>One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the >>mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of >>Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in >>the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] >>The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes, >>only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could >>be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane! >The secret citadel of Onchash Chairan rather >parallels the sect started by Ssraminesh mra Kutaya. [By the bye, how did you >happen upon Ssraminesh? Did I mention him to you? It's too much to imagine that >you coincidentally came upon him by yourself!] I am afraid that it was pure coincidence. Unless I accidentally read the name in one of the official Tekumel publications (very possible) -- I do not remember you mentioning it to me (in our correspondence). Please tell me a little more about your Ssraminesh, I am eager to learn more about him! Apologies for any inconvenience this duplication may have caused -- I always try to be scrupulous in acknowledging any "borrowing". Perhaps Tekunu mentioned him to me -- and I just "filed" it away unconsciously???! Also, please provide a little more on the secret citadel of Onchash Chairan -- Tekunu did not "know" much about it. >>But what if the dieties are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic >>entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their >>worshippers? These cookie-cutter deities "representing" some elemental >>attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge, >>apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting. > >Hmm. You are closer than you think. The real thinkers of Tekumel are also not >satisfied with "cookie-cutter deities." Unfortunately, such creations tend to >satisfy millions of average worshippers. Go listen to the sermons in almost any >"average" Christian church -- or Muslim mosque, etc. etc. There is much more to >the cookie than what comes out of the cutter... In several cases in my expeditions on Tekumel I have encountered scholars and priests who have delved into the "deep spirituality"(hidden doctrines) of the Engsvanyali Dieties. Perhaps a visit to Hmakuyal and Sunuz would be in order! Do you have any suggestions on how to get to these cities/sites. I really do not know what the "current" situation in Livyanu is -- aside from the "false plague" and Mu'ugalavyani occupation! >>My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an >>"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities. >>Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated >>over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate >>Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive Pariah cults have always been in the >>"center" of Tekumelyani societies - guiding the course of events like >>puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special" >>knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for >>the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic >>frenzy of liberation and obliteration. >Don't give all the secrets of Tekumel away, dammit! There are hints and clues >to the powers of these sects in various places in Tekumel literature. Watch >for the signposts pointing to Coming Events... You have my word, no secrets given away. (not that I have many, mind you!) But I must inquire, where will we be seeing these signposts? Is the Livyani Plague a precursor to something MUCH LARGER? (I suspect that it is!) Who was behind the false plague? >One can always look at Jesus as a retelling of the Osiris myth of death and >resurrection. Remember, Jesus went down into Egypt -- and Paul did not stay in >Jerusalem long but headed down into Egypt when he arrived after Jesus' apparent >death. > >>Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle >>of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of >>myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah >>Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern >>"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished", >>both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who >>"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!) >This doesn't ring quite true. Ksarul is clearly different in both nature and >mythologiy/theology from the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Their goals are >different, too, if one follows the Inner Texts. I stand corrected. What I may have meant to say is that the Ksarul-myth is drawn out of a historico-social context in which SOME elements of the Pariah-myths were inserted (perhaps unconsciously) by the adherents of the "new" faith. The Emergence of Ksarul in the Bednalljan Period is, by my estimation, not "just" a coincidence of history -- I think the Bednalljans were LED to Ksarul by forces/beings that they did not fully understand nor appreciate. (More on this in the Tipika Hereziark'a) I would however love to get my hands on some of the Inner Texts -- who is the best source in Tsolyanu for this? Deragu hiFershena? >>Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah >>Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled" >>upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? > >Probably the Pariah Deities were indeed "pre-Pavar" and even"pre-Ksarul" in his >Bednalljan form. The Index of the Inquisition is fairly inefficient compared to >the Palace of the Priesthoods in Bey Su, which has seen to the sequestering of >ANYTHING relating to the Pariah Deities to the "locked stacks." What was the first recorded "contact" with the Pariah Dieties? Who would be the most likely "modern adherents" to the Pariah faith. (i.e. who is good "heretic" material?) What of the religious life of the Three States of the Triangle? Those guys are usually relegated by standard histories to "getting their a---s kicked by the Nluss Dragon Warriors). There must have been a little more to them than that! I should note that some fascinating archeological sites were "discovered" recently in the swamps north of Penom that would indicate some level of organized worship of the Pariah Dieities. Even more ominous, some conjecture has been advanced to indicate that the Ssu and/Hlyuss have had "contact" with the Goddess of the Pale Bone as late as the fall of the Three States of the Triangle. It's still too early to tell, but increased activities/forays into Tsolyanu have been reported as far west as Penom. Who currently "watches over" the proscribed texts? When was the last major action taken against the Pariah Dieities' worshippers. If memory serves, wasn't it Trankolel I (3rd Seal Emporer???) who led his armies against the minions of the One Other? What precipitated this action? A Resurgence in the "Old Faith"? >>Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search >>Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the >>nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent >>generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological consolidation. >>That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to >>maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted >>themselves over the next centuries? >Again, you could be correct. You are certainly subtle enough to be a Tekumelani >yourself! Anybody VISIT the town of Sunuz recently? Maybe this would provide a >good adventure -- in a recently plague-ridden land now occupied by >Mu'ugalavyani troops... If I could get some advice on how to get past the Mu'ugalavyani -- I just might pay a visit to SUNUZ. Perhaps via Nexal-Gate or tubeway car...Anybody got any spare Navigation Disks? What is currently the situation there in Livyanu? Has the Plague passed over? Why was it "artificial"? Who was behind it then? Has the Forbidden City of Dlash been "breached" by Mu'ugalavyani legions? My favorite nation has always been Livyanu -- I hate to see fall on such hard times! >>My interest in the Pariah Dieties arose out some research and development of >>the "languages" of these heretical sects/religions (Zna'ye, Sunuz, Ai Che). >>I have always maintained that Duruob is linguistically related to Sunuz -- >>again the Livyani connection. >Sunuz is not genetically related to Duru'ob, but there are CLOSE connections. >Zna'ye and Ai Che are linguistically from totally different families, but there >are theological and conceptual relationships that deserve exploring. What sort of shared semantic or mythic-patterns do we find in source texts (shared iconography?). Is there a "Rosetta Stone"-like treatise available in Tsolyanu on this theological/conceptual "connection"? My own research has dug up, in addition to the work I already mentioned, several Classical Engsvanyali texts -- purporting to be "grammars" of some very odd dialects of Duru'ob... as well as an Ai Che grammar by Kaijda hi'Gessumai of Purdimal published during the reign of "The Spider" (Nriqu??) Emperor (only known extant copy held by the Temple of Ksarul in that city). All works draw on far older sources --some of which may well prove apocryphal. The most interesting material, however, may be some alledged "translations" (in Bednalljan Salarvyani) on Mihalli texts (Titles include: The Pandect of Des'as'ura and The Codex of the Renderer of Veils (an odd combination of poetry and rituals related to "other planar voyages"). I will pass my research along to you and the rest of this group as time permits. >>How about Llyani -- which was codified and >>used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were >>transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar >>sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable! > >Don't be too harsh on him. He did manage a reasonable amalgamation of the data >-and he solved a lot of theological inconsistencies that had been bothering the >scholars of the First Imperium. I have/had no intention of laying into the old guy, I think Pavar was a major figure in the emergence of a coherent(partailly), institutional framework for religious worship. Like all good pupils, I have studied the Scrolls of Pavar well. I only press the point that he "missed", whether intentionally or not, some major aspects of the theology of the Gods(Orthodox and otherwise). Pavar was a swell guy -- and the Golden Age of Engsvan hla Ganga was a result! >>I am >>interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in >>Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the >>"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all, >>all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative >>underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over >>four years! >You are certainly welcome to investigate this part of Tekumelani religion. If >you can find out more about the Pariah Deities, I should be very interested to >see it. Tsolyani history and scholarship is NOT interested (openly) in the >Pariah Deities, as said above, but there are a few scholars here and there. I will get portions of the Book of the Heresiarchs(probably those dealing with the Brotherhhod of the One True Shadow) out to the group for consideration as soon as possible. >I can't guarantee that your book will work as "real" Tekumel. But it will >certainly be interesting, even if purely heretical. You might make a pilgrimage >to the city of Hmakuyal; there are scholars there with interests like yours.Ask >for a scholar-priest named Deragu hiFershena. He may be there or in Bey Su. He >has ideas about the Pariah Deities that mesh with yours in some ways. He sounds like a scholar I would enjoy meeting with. Please give me some more particulars about him (such as his physical description, personal habits/tastes, clan, and most recent whereabouts). What can you tell me of Hmakuyal -- I only know that it is the site of several important shrines to Ksaruland now a set of "ruins"! I need travel directions! Being sequestered in Bey Su until I can get Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa's notes and scholarly materials released has put a definite crimp in my travel plans. Perhaps I should just let by well connection clan brothers take over and hit the road to Hmakuyal/Sunuz! >Dinner conversation, Chris? Anybody still hungry? Insatiable! Thanks for the detailed response -- it has proven very enlightening. ------ Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu [Moderator's note: Again Alex, thanks for the incredible detail in your ] [ posts. I am posting this directly to the list, and ] [ forwarding to Professor Barker ] //14 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Alex's second message on ] [ Pariah Heresiology ] [>>>> = Alex's First (Message 2) ] [>>> = Mike's Response (Message 8) ] [>> = Professor Barkers response (Message 10) ] [> = Alex's Second Message responding to Message 8 and 10 (Message 13) ] [ Sorry for the delay, but I had to work out the above message legend. ] [ Let me know if it was helpful, or do you just want the message pretty ] [ much as is, and any figuring out of who said what earlier will be left ] [ up to you (the most recent message will always have one > in front of ] [ it, and the reply will have none. Sorry for the delay in sending this ] [ out. ] [Further Note: I am currently working on the Temple of Thumis article from] [one of the old magazines. If anyone wants to whip up one of the other ] [articles, please feel free to do so. You can send it to me and I'll put ] [it on the ftp site for everyone to enjoy. Contact me for some thoughts ] [on writing up articles (to preserve the diacritical marks). ] >>>>Pariah Heresiology and Engsvanyali Revisionism: Some Thoughts >>>Contact with the gods, direct, personal experience of them, is common and >>>verifiable. The techniques first written down by Pavar are spread through all >>>the cultures of Tekumel and they know how to reach out to the beings they >>>worship. From the parts of Pavar's work we have, these techniques give an >>>impression of the nature of those gods, their personalities. >I do not dispute this synopsis of the orthodox theological position. It was >made very persuasivley by a Mriyan in the Temple of Ksarul (cf: Preface to >the Book of Ebon Bindings) However, I believe it is (1) fascinating and (2) >great fodder for thinking about Tekumel to consider a view of Tekumel's >history through the prism/optic of the Pariah Dieties and their cults. >Syncretism(sp?) and revisionism are prime forces in the molding of social >history/beliefs -- and the viewpoint that Pavar (and the Engsvanyali >PriestKings) brought to Tekumel is a legitimate, but perhaps limited, one. >>>These are objective >>>facts that can't be rewritten by human whim or social pressures. >I have to disagree here slightly. The amalgamation process evinced by the >development of the orthodox canon (in both its doxology, mythology, and >eschatology (a whole lot 'o 'logies'!) would suggest that human whims and >social pressures have had a major impact on the "view" of the Gods. A case >in point is Lord Hrsh, the major Mu'ugalavyani Diety. The Mu'ugalavyani >recension of the Lament to the Wheel of Black is replete with mentions of >Hrsh's activities in the "God Time", yet the classical Engsvanyali recension >fails to mention him at all. Now, realise that epic poetry, myths, and >song-cycles are amoung the most prominent ways of dessemination of what I >call "doxology" -- and you see exactly where and how social >pressures/expediencies come into play. Let's face it, the majority of >Tekumel's inhabitants never receive formal education/religious >training/theological indoctrination -- they grow up. live, and die emeshed >in the myths and stories "in general circulation". As do Americans, Britishers, Frenchmen, Mongols, Pakistanis, etc. The fact is that ecclesiastical treatises and philosophical tomes are pretty hard going for most folks. I sweated through Philosophy 101 and snoozed over Descartes and Kant myself. It wasn't hat I saw some good in these thinkers and came to enjoy reading them. >(They get their >"religion" from epic cycles like the Epic of Na'Inverge, not from >ecclessiatical treatises.) A Parallel development to Lord Hrsh is the >Salarvyani Lady Shiringgayi (sp?) -- viewed by Tsolyani >sophisticates/theologians as an "amalgam" of aspects of Avanthe and >Dlamelish. But from the perspective of worshippers of Lady S. -- she is her >"own" being/essence -- they do not parse her down into finer "ontological" >categories. What "currents" flowed together to forge this unique Diety (Lady >S)? That is the purpose of "heresiology" in my sense -- to bring those >currents to the surface, and to highlight the marginal/mutant >"micro-histories" that escape the big, standard treaties, pandects, >codicils, tomes, etc. Much of the "formative matter" of Christianity can be >found in the "heretical writings" of the Nag Hammadi library -- writings >which were there at the "origin" of Christianity (offering a competing >vision/theology/symbology) - but which were (in this case) ruthlessly >suppressed/proscribed/banned/etc. I would add that the writings of Paul (who never actually met Jesus and who had only a "vision of him to go by) -- and the lack of actual writings from those resident in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus -- had a lot to do with the moulding of Christianity. By the time the Church bishops finished with their choosing and discarding of the books of the Holy Writ, there probably wasn't much left that an early follower of Jesus from Jerusalem could have recognised. >-- What I would like to produce (perhaps with >the aid of other like-minded souls) is a "secret history" of Tekumel -- >filling in those gaps left out by the PriestKings and their decendents! >Hence, the Tipika Hereziark'a. For each king, a heresiarch! I think that >would bring out the "logic" of Tekumel's history out even better than a >one-sided/orthodox account. [Note: I readily acknowledge the possibility of >multiple "orthodoxies" -- Hrsh worship, the Shadow Gods, Lady Shirringgayi, >the Shen Dieties, etc.] Is this still possible? Many of these works are lost, distorted, or twisted completely beyond recogniseability by later ecclesiasts. There are only a few Sunuz texts extant, fewer Zna'ye, and a lot of Ai Che stuff that is clearly later and much garbled. Duru'ob is better known but still a corpus a couple of thousand years old. Llyani is limited to a few texts and various monuments. I am not sure we can reach back to the point where you want to go. Is it not possible that your "Tipika Hereziark'a" may even be a later forgery, put out by one or another faction to confuse these issues? This sounds like something tthe Temple of Ksarul would happily do in order to keep religious history muddled. I can't say whether I am right or wrong -- not until I have actually seen the manuscript. >My point is this: far from eliminating syncretism, the present >"relationship" of the people of Tekumel to "their" gods is highly syncretic. >My purpose is to take the rich tapestry apart -- to find the intricate >threads that have been woven into the orthodoxy of the Five Empires. The >Pariah Dieities (and their cults/sects) appear to be a point-of-entry (hence >the Book of the Heresiarchs...) I hope you can manage this. Many people would be interested. But you will encounter only hostility and even danger from the orthodoxies who do NOT want the role(s) of the Pariah Deities revealed to the scholarly community. >>>But I think that speculation about the relationship between the twenty gods >>>and cohorts and the Pariah Gods (especially the legend of Ksarul) is indeed >>>likely to skirt the central 'mystery of Tekumel'. Whatever that may be..... >I would love to have a more serious/extensive discussion of the "Great >Mystery". >I realize that over-analysis could easily neutralize the ethos and wonder of >Tekumel, but some elaboration on the College of Wizards, the "Egg of the >World", and allied mysteries is in order. Various of my players can speak on these topics better than I. The College of Wizards at the End of Time is a frequent destination when the players are fleeing from something bigger and more horrible than the usual nasties. The Undying Wizards (Thomar, Subadim, Hagarr, and the lot) dwell in reasonable harmony in the College and make frequent forays out to defend the Many Planes from the ravages of She Who Cannot Be Named. The place is located at the site of today's Avanthar, but many, many millennia in the future, when "all the Strands of Time have finally come together as one," as Lady Sarvodaya Di'ela (one of the Great Wizards who has a tendency to work both sides of the ideological street) puts it. They occasionally put up with refugees and visitors from "down-time," but they reveal nothing and evince little interest in "who is Emperor?" and similar local and minor questions. They are not aware of the solution to the Great Mystery, of this I am certain. I doubt that they know it exists as such. >>>>I will further suggest >>>>that several of the more recondite faiths, such as the inner mysteries of >>>>Ksarul's worshippers, and MANY of the Livyani Shadow Gods' worshippers' >>>>rituals, beliefs, and cosmologies are replete/permeated with the >>>>heresiological "lore" and "knowledge" gleaned from the worship of the Old >>>>Gods (The Terrifying Goddess/She Who Must Not Be Named) -- the Pariah >>>>Dieties. You are almost certainly correct here. >>The priesthoods will quickly admit that this has indeed happened,historically. >>Various ancient deities have become syncretically amalgamated into the >>personae >>of the 20 deities of Pavar's pantheon.I think I could delve around and come up >>with a few Bednalljan deities that did not survive Pavar's revolution -- but >>which "resurfaced" later as "Aspects" of conceptually-related deities in >>Pavar's theology. >Great! This is exactly what I was driving at. Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa of the >Temple of Ksarul at Urmish, prior to his mysterious disappearance in 2365 >AS, was researching the foundations of early Ksarul worship in the southeast >of modern day Tsolyanu (in the area of Salarvya conjectured to be the site >of ancient Purdanim). Actually many thinkers believe that Purdanim was located somewhere a hundred Tsan or so north of Setnakh in modern Tsolyanu, although this is dubious. If so, it is buried beneath 400-500 feet of alluvial topsoil. >His treatise on Ai Che and Zna'ye (The Codicil of the >Blue King in Glory) (officially repressed by factions within the Temple) was >the beginning of a study of the influence of certain "unmentionable" Dieties >in the initial/nascent development of the worship of Ksarul. Specifically, >the "methodology" for contacting the God/and his minions and the secret >(inner) doctrines surrounding his "legendary battle" with the other gods. >Things are not as simple as the Lament to the Wheel of Black would put it. Quite correct. I always thought Ni'ur was a fuddy-duddy until I read his treatise called "The Rising of the Blue Prince Eternal." He seems to have been more correct than most of his colleagues dared believe. >The "hidden symbology" of Ksarul, known only to the highest ranks of the >faithful, paints a more mysterious view of this "Rebel of the Gods". Tsemel >Ni'ur's research was, in part, an attempted explanation/description of the >mythico-theological roots these inherited "inner mysteries". Unfortunately >this research has been buried since his disappearance....and several of his >closest friends has also met with "accidents" since then (both within >Tsolyanu and abroad). I hope to include an excerpt from his writings in the >Book of the Heresiarchs. I'll see if Lady Kalusu hiViridame (my best contact within the Temple of Ksarul) can get a copy of Tsemel Ni'ur's work. It will be difficult -- the Council of the Priesthoods is thorough. >>As for conversion "by the sword," I tend to doubt there was a lot of that.Most >>conversion en-masse seems more due to economics and political opportunism. >I would agree entirely -- except that I think all three factors were >strongly in play. The War between Vimuhla and Ksarul worshippers is a case >in point (I hope) of mass conversion (or attempted conversion...) under >extreme political and social duress. >>>>What sorts of heretical/mystical sects would have been nurtured by such a >>>>situation? What would their inner mysteries reveal? [The Brotherhood of the >>>>One True Shadow (in my Campaign) was just one such sect, founded by the >>>>mystic and master assassin Ssraminesh mra Kutaya (nicknamed "The Hand of >>>>Twilight" by his enemies) in the early period of the Bednalljan Imperium in >>>>the ancient city of Purdanim (now lost).] >>>>The "Great War" has been unfolding for aeons behind the scenes, >>>>only now ready to burst open into a Sacred/Ecclessiastical Jihad which could >>>>be the ruin of all sentients on Tekumel's plane! >>The secret citadel of Onchash Chairan rather >>parallels the sect started by Ssraminesh mra Kutaya. [By the bye, how did you >>happen upon Ssraminesh? Did I mention him to you? It's too much to imagine >>that you coincidentally came upon him by yourself!] >I am afraid that it was pure coincidence. Unless I accidentally read the >name in one of the official Tekumel publications (very possible) -- I do not >remember you mentioning it to me (in our correspondence). Please tell me a >little more about your Ssraminesh, I am eager to learn more about him! Sraminesh mra Kutaya has neot been mentioned in any of my works, as far as I recall. Anybody remember seeing his name before? He lived in the First Millennium of the Bednalljan Lords of the South, sometime shortly after the founding of the city of Purdanim. He is rather a shadowy figure who may fore- shadow the Blasphemous Accelerators and the Wizard Metallja. His followers were feared as assassins and mercenaries. They also seem to have had access to some sort of cache of weapons and machines of the Great Ancients, including a "trapped" Interfogulator which is now said to belong to Lord Sanjesh hiKirisaya and is stored in his house in Usenanu. The thing is decidedly dangerous. He can perhaps be persuaded to describe the functions of this type of machine. Sraminesh used his skills and his machines to transport himself and his chief adherents (said to number 9) out of Purdanim just before the Imperial troops made rather a clean and ugly sweep of them. Some island in the southern seas on the far side of Tekumel was their supposed destination (resting place?). I can't recall the name of it now. Tekunu will gladly provide more on Onchash Chairan and the Accelerators. >>>>But what if the deities are "not what they appear" -- simple atomistic >>>>entities with a standard repetoire of "aspects" to beguile their >>>>worshippers? These cookie-cutter deities "representing" some elemental >>>>attributes of the cosmos (violence, desire, birth, death, self-knowldge, >>>>apathy) seem too anemic to be truly interesting. >>Hmm. You are closer than you think. >In several cases in my expeditions on Tekumel I have encountered scholars >and priests who have delved into the "deep spirituality"(hidden doctrines) >of the Engsvanyali Dieties. Perhaps a visit to Hmakuyal and Sunuz would be >in order! Do you have any suggestions on how to get to these cities/sites. I >eally do not know what the "current" situation in Livyanu is -- aside from >the "false plague" and Mu'ugalavyani occupation! The plague killed about three quarters of the Livyani population. It was a terrible catastrophe. The town of Sunuz is still held by the Red Hats, although I am sure they haven't a clue about the real nature of the old town and what lies beneath it. Hmakuyal is easier to reach -- it's a great big volcanic "sink" in southwestern Tsolyanu, and anybody can show you the way. The ruins are caves built into the canyon walls. Tourists get within a certain distance and are then stopped. Pilgrims get farther and are shunted off to perform religious rituals at some of the famous cave-shrines. Those who are true thinkers are sometimes -- rarely -- invited in for discussions. In your case, with your interest in heretics and unorthodox thinking, you might want to be a little cautious. >>>>My point with all this is: The Pariah Dieties are not just an >>>>"outside"/terrible darkness/wholely "other" to the Engsvanyali dieities. >>>>Rather, aspects of the Pariah Dieties have been incorporated/assimilated >>>>over countless aeons into the "official" state religions that dominate >>>>Tekumel today. Indeed, secretive Pariah cults have always been in the >>>>"center" of Tekumelyani societies - guiding the course of events like >>>>puppet masters -- holding key positions, having access to "special" >>>>knowledge (demonology, other planar travel, etc.), and biding their time for >>>>the "True Unmasking" -- when the old ways will return in an anarchistic >>>>frenzy of liberation and obliteration. >>Don't give all the secrets of Tekumel away, dammit! There are hints and clues >>to the powers of these sects in various places in Tekumel literature. Watch >>for the signposts pointing to Coming Events... >You have my word, no secrets given away. (not that I have many, mind you!) >But I must inquire, where will we be seeing these signposts? Is the Livyani >Plague a precursor to something MUCH LARGER? (I suspect that it is!) Who was >behind the false plague? You are correct. The plague was an accident, in a way, but it was also part of a major plot that involves all sorts of high persons. >>>>Let me explain what I mean. The mythic cycle >>>>of Ksarul's fall could be a revision and retelling of a far older set of >>>>myths relating to the banishment/imprisonment/temporary defeat of the Pariah >>>>Dieties -- perhaps of the Goddess of the Pale Bone. Is Ksarul a modern >>>>"name" for an aspect of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Both are "banished", >>>>both have legends of a "return" -- a final revenge upon those who >>>>"imprisoned" them (The End of Time stuff with the College of Wizards!!) I doubt whether Ksarul is a name for the Goddess. There are too many conflicts between them. >I stand corrected. What I may have meant to say is that the Ksarul-myth is >drawn out of a historico-social context in which SOME elements of the >Pariah-myths were inserted (perhaps unconsciously) by the adherents of the >"new" faith. The Emergence of Ksarul in the Bednalljan Period is, by my >estimation, not "just" a coincidence of history -- I think the Bednalljans >were LED to Ksarul by forces/beings that they did not fully understand nor >appreciate. (More on this in the Tipika Hereziark'a) I would however love to >get my hands on some of the Inner Texts -- who is the best source in >Tsolyanu for this? Deragu hiFershena? I think so. There may be still greater scholars, but I can't think of any. >>>>Notice that the classical sources are awfully silent on just HOW the Pariah >>>>Dieties were contacted/worshipped, etc., in the first place. Who "stumbled" >>>>upon them? Where did these heretical faiths get their start? You are right. The appearance of the One Other in the Lament to the Wheel of Black and other epics of Dormoron Plain do NOT say how they were contacted and why Pavar missed putting any mention of them into his Pandects. >>Probably the Pariah Deities were indeed "pre-Pavar" and even"pre-Ksarul" in >>his >>Bednalljan form. The Index of the Inquisition is fairly inefficient compared >>to >>the Palace of the Priesthoods in Bey Su, which has seen to the sequestering of >>ANYTHING relating to the Pariah Deities to the "locked stacks." >What was the first recorded "contact" with the Pariah Dieties? Who would be >the most likely "modern adherents" to the Pariah faith. (i.e. who is good >"heretic" material?) What of the religious life of the Three States of the >Triangle? Those guys are usually relegated by standard histories to "getting >their a---s kicked by the Nluss Dragon Warriors). There is a LOT more to it. But records are missing and destroyed, and the great Missuma River has flooded their palaces with mud. Then when Ganga sank, the whole area was flooded: as the tectonic plates of the north rose to turn the Sea of Yan Kor into what is now the Desert of Sighs, the south sank, rose, and sank again. It is very hard finding much about the Three States of the Triangle now. We need some serious archaeology. >There must have been a >little more to them than that! I should note that some fascinating >archeological sites were "discovered" recently in the swamps north of Penom >that would indicate some level of organized worship of the Pariah Dieities. >Even more ominous, some conjecture has been advanced to indicate that the >Ssu and/Hlyuss have had "contact" with the Goddess of the Pale Bone as late >as the fall of the Three States of the Triangle. It's still too early to >tell, but increased activities/forays into Tsolyanu have been reported as >far west as Penom. As late as yesterday, actually. The Ssu and the Hluss are rather active in the Zu'ur trade and in the grand plot against humanity that seems to be brewing. >Who currently "watches over" the proscribed texts? When was the last major >action taken against the Pariah Dieities' worshippers. If memory serves, >wasn't it Trankolel I (3rd Seal Emporer???) who led his armies against the >minions of the One Other? What precipitated this action? A Resurgence in the >"Old Faith"? Yes, it was he. His advisors reported that the south would return to the worship of the Pariah Deities if something were not done. The Goddess was apparently passing out favours... >>>>Is it possible (my, I am beginning to sound like Leonard Nimoy on In Search >>>>Of...) that the Pariah Dieties were originally in some way part of the >>>>nascent orthodox pantheon -- but were systematically effaced as subsequent >>>>generations/cultures moved toward a political/theological consolidation. >>>>That the sects had to go "underground" (into the Catacombs....) in order to >>>>maintain their cohesion? And that they slowly, inchoately reasserted >>>>themselves over the next centuries? >>Again, you could be correct.You are certainly subtle enough to be a Tekumelani >>yourself! Anybody VISIT the town of Sunuz recently? Maybe this would provide a >>good adventure -- in a recently plague-ridden land now occupied by >>Mu'ugalavyani troops... >If I could get some advice on how to get past the Mu'ugalavyani -- I just >might pay a visit to SUNUZ. Perhaps via Nexal-Gate or tubeway car...Anybody >got any spare Navigation Disks? What is currently the situation there in >Livyanu? Has the Plague passed over? Why was it "artificial"? Who was behind >it then? Has the Forbidden City of Dlash been "breached" by Mu'ugalavyani >legions? My favorite nation has always been Livyanu -- I hate to see fall on >such hard times! Sunuz is perhaps too dangerous, although the daughter of the wizard Eyloa is now leading the resistance against the Mu'ugalavyani. If anybody can get you to the town, she can. She is now called "Fire-Face" because of the plague scars she bears, and some of the underclass in Tsamra can point you to her. And no, Dlash was never taken by the Red Hats. They made a bargain with the Shen not to go much farther south than Tsamra, although they have breached this here and there. Dlash is completely ignored -- nobody wants to risk the wrath of certain ones who have access to Tekumel there. >What sort of shared semantic or mythic-patterns do we find in source texts >(shared iconography?). Is there a "Rosetta Stone"-like treatise available in >Tsolyanu on this theological/conceptual "connection"? My own research has >dug up, in addition to the work I already mentioned, several Classical >Engsvanyali texts -- purporting to be "grammars" of some very odd dialects >of Duru'ob... as well as an Ai Che grammar by Kaijda hi'Gessumai of Purdimal >published during the reign of "The Spider" (Nriqu??) Emperor (only known >extant copy held by the Temple of Ksarul in that city) I would have to see this grammar of Ai CHe to determine its reliability. Most of the materials done on this far northeastern language are as weird as early English grammars of American Indian languages. >All works draw on >far older sources --some of which may well prove apocryphal. The most >interesting material, however, may be some alledged "translations" (in >Bednalljan Salarvyani) on Mihalli texts (Titles include: The Pandect of >Des'as'ura and The Codex of the Renderer of Veils (an odd combination of >poetry and rituals related to "other planar voyages"). I will pass my >research along to you and the rest of this group as time permits. Fine. Love to see it. >>>>How about Llyani -- which was codified and >>>>used before the "big orthodoxy" of Pavar. What secret doctrines were >>>>transmitted to the knowledgable/initiated thousands of years before Pavar >>>>sat down with his scrolls and started penning his little fable! >>Don't be too harsh on him. He did manage a reasonable amalgamation of the data >>-and he solved a lot of theological inconsistencies that had been bothering >>the scholars of the First Imperium. >I have/had no intention of laying into the old guy, I think Pavar was a >major figure in the emergence of a coherent(partailly), institutional >framework for religious worship. Like all good pupils, I have studied the >Scrolls of Pavar well. I only press the point that he "missed", whether >intentionally or not, some major aspects of the theology of the >Gods(Orthodox and otherwise). Pavar was a swell guy -- and the Golden Age of >Engsvan hla Ganga was a result! >>>>I am >>>>interested in closing in on a thread that I find quite tantalizing in >>>>Tekumelyani ethnology (The Pariah Dieties) -- and trying to extrapolate the >>>>"consequences" of that into Tekumel's rich sociological fabric. After all, >>>>all of this speculation is really geared toward providing a narrative >>>>underpinning to the Tekumel campaign that I have been running now for over >>>>four years! >>You are certainly welcome to investigate this part of Tekumelani religion. If >>you can find out more about the Pariah Deities, I should be very interested to >>see it. Tsolyani history and scholarship is NOT interested (openly) in the >>Pariah Deities, as said above, but there are a few scholars here and there. >I will get portions of the Book of the Heresiarchs(probably those dealing >with the Brotherhhod of the One True Shadow) out to the group for >consideration as soon as possible. >>I can't guarantee that your book will work as "real" Tekumel. But it will >>certainly be interesting, even if purely heretical.You might make a pilgrimage >>to the city of Hmakuyal;there are scholars there with interests like yours.Ask >>for a scholar-priest named Deragu hiFershena. He may be there or in Bey Su. He >>has ideas about the Pariah Deities that mesh with yours in some ways. >He sounds like a scholar I would enjoy meeting with. Please give me some >more particulars about him (such as his physical description, personal >habits/tastes, clan, and most recent whereabouts). What can you tell me of >Hmakuyal -- I only know that it is the site of several important shrines to >Ksaruland now a set of "ruins"! I need travel directions! Being sequestered >in Bey Su until I can get Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa's notes and scholarly >materials released has put a definite crimp in my travel plans. Perhaps I >should just let by well connection clan brothers take over and hit the road >to Hmakuyal/Sunuz! Deragu is a rather elegant man, good physique, late thirties or early forties, thick head of hair, dark circles under his eyes (giving him an "owl-eyed" look), deep and resoant voice with strong hints of a "Bey Su" accent. He has one wife and had two children, both of whom died in a boating accident a few years ago. He is now pursuing a young noblewoman in Bey Su, but I don't know her name. His interests in Other Planar, historical, and Pariah Deity matters are legendary. I think you will like him. I must get this off! We're taking up more disc space than a political convention! More later. ------ Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //15 [Moderator's Note: Paul Snow writes from England to the group as a whole ] Hi, A while ago I set a story in Kamore in the north of Tsolyanu. I am thinking of writing this up for The Eye of Allseeing Wonder but before I can be happy with it I would like to improve the description of the area around the town. So - does anyone have any ideas what the landscape is like in the north of Tsolyanu? The Atkolel heights lie to the West and the mountains lie to the East. (Can't remember what the peak there is called) What is it like in the middle. I used ideas of rolling hills and downland originally but that is drawing on English countryside not Tekumel landscapes. So. Comments? ------- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //16 [Moderator's note: Keith (Sanjesh hiKirisaya) responds to Paul's Komore ] [ question ] This is in response to the request for information about the area around Komore. This is taken directly from the northwest frontier gazzeteer. The area around Komore is rich agricultural land, with small agricultural villages scattered across the hex. Here again, the western clans that are involved in agriculture own large portions of this hex, as do several of the temples that are stronger in the west Komore: This is a large walled sakbe road town. It functions as a marketplace for the fruits and other produce grown in the surrounding areas. Interesting sights near Komore: Fort Nishu'va and Fort Rue'lu These are guard towers located in very defensible positions, consisting of a 3-4 story tower durrounded by a ring wall with a single gate. Rumusu Peak This is simply a high hill. Fort Rue'le is located on this hilltop. River of white salt. This is a brackish river that seems to spring out of the side of Rumusu peak and flows away east. The shores of the river are crusted with salt deposits, thus giving the river it's name. Plateau of Ke'ttusesh This is a fairly nondescript plateau that rises out of the surrounding aggricultural terrain. That is the hex of Komore'. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //17 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Paul's question about ] [ Komore ] Hi back! The landscape around Komore is complex. It is only about 100 Tsan southeast to the edge of the Swamps that surround old Purdimal. These are rather like fens: turgid, brown water, tall rushes and dismal little crooked trees, groves of taller trees, and here and there a copse of the black-leaved Tiu-trees (rather like spruces or pines) that are common in the northlands. Here and there are patches of the deadly Food of the Ssu and less pleasant plants. Once the Sakbe Road leaves the swamps, it rises along a spur of hills northwestward to the more arid plateau upon which Komore stands. There are low hills and broad valleys here, watered poorly by run-off from the great mountain massif to the east, the mighty Thenu Thendraya Peak, one of the tallest single peaks on Tekumel. Go east from Komore, and you come to swiftly rising foothills, thento cliffs and gorges, then to higher peaks, and finally to the triangular needle of Thenu Thendraya itself. Go north from Komore and you enter more and more arid land that slopes gradually downhill to te edge of the Desert of Sighs. Plants here are sparse, more like cacti, with gnarled and stunted desert trees here and there in a rocky, sandy, red-brown landscape. To the east of Komore lie better lands: the lain south of mighty Khirgar, stretching west to Si'is and Tu'unmra and down to Mrelu. Crops grow well here: reddish Dna-grain, Dmi-root, Dle-fruit orchards, and a variety of vegetables and other fruits. The people of Komore (pronounced "Ko-mo-RAY") are sturdy agriculturalists, clannish and a little reserved, not as warlike as the Khirgari, not as inward- looking and silent as the residents of the Swamps around Purdimal, not as boisterous as the reddish-complected (Mu'ugalavyani-related) folk of Si'is and the Atkolel Heights, nor as serious and solemn as the border peoples of Paya Gupa, with their endless devotions to Lord Thumis. Komore has a reputation for solidity and reliability. There are minerals to be mined in the area, farm products, herds of Hma and Hmelu and Chlen to be pastured on the slopes to the east, wines to be made in vineyards on the higher slopes of the Thenu Thendraya range, with transport clans very prominent, and a certain number of ancient desert-related clans as well. Komore is not known as the headquarters for any particular religious sect: all 20 temples of the gods are found within its dust- red stone walls, and its broad streets are home to people of many sects and nationalities. One sees many Pe Choi here, as well as Pachi Lei refugees (now especially since the Mu'ugalavyani took Pan Chaka early in Emperor Dhich'une's reign), various desert tribesemen who speak in unintelligible Milumanyani dialects, various Yan Koryani merchants, and others. THe city is not large, but it is well run. The governor is a woman: Lady Nia hiVekkuma, of the Green Malachite Clan, 33 years old, and a devotee of Lady Dlamelish, and quite pretty (though not "beautiful": she is too slender and tall for that). Her tastes run to secret orgies and adolescent males. She is, however, a good administrator and has never been known to fail in her tasks. Her clan is powerful in Komore because of nearby deposits of its sacred stone: malachite. The only other person I know from Komore is a Kasi in the Storm of Fire Legion (21st MI), whose name is Chiyoz hiZhotlu'e (a Milumanayani lineage of no stature). He is perhaps 35 years old, a member of the White Crystal clan, and devoted to Lord Chiteng. He is sturdy, stocky, round-headed with almost no neck, blinks continually, and mean. He was the officer of a contingent of troops that fought in the northern war against Yan Kor. I think he has returned home by now. No idea whether he has a family or not. In Milumanaya he was always buying and selling Milumanayani prisoners, which fastidious Tsolyani consider to be a VERY low thing to do. Slavers are not popular in the Empire. Chiyoz was not well liked by his troops, but he was a tenacious fighter. I hope this helps a bit. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //18 [Moderator's Note: This is a response to Kieth's message about Komore ] [ from Professor Barker. ] >This is in response to the request for information about the area around >Komore. This is taken directly from the northwest frontier gazzeteer. Lord Sanjesh is essentially correct. I don't have a copy of the northwestern maps and gazetteer handy, or I could look these items up and comment in detail. >The area around Komore is rich agricultural land, with small agricultural >villages scattered across the hex. Here again, the western clans that >are involved in agriculture own large portions of this hex, as do several >of the temples that are stronger in the west The really good agricultural land lies to the west of Komore, downtowards Si'is and Hauma. >Komore: This is a large walled sakbe road town. It functions as a >marketplace for the fruits and other produce grown in the surrounding >areas. >Interesting sights near Komore: >Fort Nishu'va and Fort Rue'lu These are guard towers located in very >defensible positions, consisting of a 3-4 story tower surrounded by >a ring wall with a single gate. Not major fortifications, as Lord Sanjesh indicates. Just watchtowers against Milumanayani incursions. I am wondering whether the "'" are meant to be glottal stops (as in Hru'u and Dhich'une) or whether they were meant to be accents on the preceding vowels. I'll have to dredge out copies of the old NW frontier maps. >Rumusu Peak This is simply a high hill. Fort Rue'le is located on >this hilltop. This is in the northern part of the hex on the Zocchi map (#4409). The path up to the tower is steep and stony, as I recall, and much overgrown with brambles and thorn plants. >River of white salt. This is a brackish river that seems to spring out >of the side of Rumusu peak and flows away east. Again, in the northern part of the hex, as I dimly recall. The edge of the Desert of Sighs is not a fun place. >The shores of the river are crusted with salt deposits, thus giving the >river it's name. Another name, used by the Milumanayani Tribesmen, is "The River of White Thirst." Farther down in its course, the river water is so salty as to be poisonous. >Plateau of Ke'ttusesh This is a fairly nondescript plateau that rises >out of the surrounding agricultural terrain. (I am sure the "'" in this name is an acute accent on the preceding "e.") This is one of the minor plateaus I mentioned in my letter. I can't think of much to say about it. The Tsolyani were rather hoping that if the Yan Koryani army came this way, they could be held off by determined troops at the top of the decline leading down to the north. As somebody gently pointed out, all the enemy had to do was to go around and take another route. Several slopes lead up to the top of the plateau. There was some thought of adding to Komore's fortifications, but I don't recall that anything much was done. The war was mainly fought farther west, at the Atkolel Heights, and then the Tsolyani took the offensive and moved up through Pijjena to Kai, etc. The Baron's forces couldn't bring enough water and supplies to march down through the terrible Desert of Sighs. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //19 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers Mark Eggert's question about ] [ the third Tekumel novel. ] >What news of the third novel? Alas, the most recent version was lost when my computer hard drive went down. The addition of an external iomega drive to my SCSI chain was just too much, and all I ended with was a blank disc icon with a question mark in the middle: no partitions, no data, no files. I have been putting pieces back on as I find them on my external floppies. I do have a version of the novel that dates from last year, and it is pretty complete: 23 chapters. It doesn't have my latest changes on it, however. Oh well, one can always admit that many of those changes were not too good anyhow. Most were in response to my players, who really didn't like the third novel that much and had lots of requests to change things. Now I have to get to work and finish the damned thing. -- If I don't get too depressed over various dismal causes that cannot be explained here. I'll try. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //20 [Moderator's Note: We now have over 30 members on the list! Bob Dushay ] [ asks the professor a question about Salarvya. ] >I am running a campaign in Salarvya, and I will soon have my party >moving into the eastern part of the country. I understand that Salarvya >is virtually an empire in name only. However, what are the borders >of the states that make it up? What are the names of the states, and >who rules them? How much do they acknowledge the overlordship of >Tsatsayagga? Thanks for any information on this. The borders of the "family territories" of Salarvya have never really been worked out, least of all by the Salarvyani themselves. There are no FORMAL boundaries. The Salarvyani "states" are really clusters of families/clans around stronger urban regions. See the (Zocchi edition) of the "Sourcebook," Sec. 1.735, p. 66 ff.. Do you have this? There is a paragraph there listing the great "families" and the rough areas they control. There is more on pp. 74-75. If you do not have the "Sourcebook," one of us could copy out the relevant portions for you by e-mail. Why would anybody WANT to adventure in Salarvya? Your players must truly be heroes! The place is practically in a continuous state of civil insurrection these days, although the western "families" (under the leadership of Koyluga) have managed to cooperate in sending expeditions and scouting probes into Tsolyanu through the Gilraya Forests to see how "soft" and "spongy" the Tsolyani have become, now that they are fighting their own civil war with all the factions against Emperor Dhich'une! The nicest region in Salarvya is way out east: Jaekanta, under the Shiggashko'onmu lineage. They are so far from Tsatsayagga that they hardly know the place exists. Which is much better for them. I wonder if Lord Tekunu hiQolyelmu could scan and e-mail his adventure notes for the voyage along the coast of Salarvya that we took last year? This would be a lot of work for him, but perhaps he could get it scanned at Kinko's and then just "enclose" a file from a disc. I hesitate to ask him -- he's so busy. He might also be able to skim the cultural/geographic facts from his notes and send those along. ??? Regards! ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //21 [Moderator's Note: Paul Snow sends greetings to the list and asks a ] [ question. (Some of which is elaborated on in an ] [ article I am transcribing this very instant, but ] [ there is much more to say on the subject. ] Greetings, oh mighty and excellent scholars, I would like some opinions on the following matters. How do the inimical alien races of Tekumel worship the mighty powers that the humans dress up as gods? The Gods are well known for the inscrutability and strangeness but so are those dangerous aliens. Is this a help or hindrance to a hluss? Are the Hluss et al. worshippers of Ksarulness as they need power to regain their glory? Also, magic in the Five Empires has become owned by the temples because they grabbed the intellectual property rights to some useful skills. If you take the religious dressing out of magic, what bag of magical tools does this leave the enemy races to play with. Are they good at magic? Do their minds work in the right way to pull through the energy from the void? Is their magical research better because it has been liberated from religious dogma? We need to know because they are out there waiting for our defences to slip. Paul Snow (Tekumel DM - desperately in need of a game and character name alias) ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //22 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Paul's Question. ] Dear Paul, You asked for a Tekumel "identity?" Would Nikun hiSayodla suit you? He is the son of Jerus hiSayodla, of the Blue hood clan, High Scholar Priest of Jaikalor. Nikun is about 24 years old, unmarried, oldest of 3 children, and a budding priest in the Temple of Lord Ksarul. He is intelligent, reasonably good looking, popular with the young ladies in his temple, and respected by his peers. Nikun doesn't mind having a "player character" using him as an "identity," although he is not sure he believes in such beings. > I would like some opinions on the following matters. How do the >inimical alien races of Tekumel worship the mighty powers that the humans >dress up as gods? The Gods are well known for the inscrutability and >strangeness but so are those dangerous aliens. Is this a help or >hindrance to a hluss? Are the Hluss et al. worshippers of Ksarulness as >they need power to regain their glory? The gods of the "friendly" races have been tailored to fit Pavar's theology to some extent. The Pe Choi, the Shen, etc. have "light/dark" or "stable/change" or some other dichotomy that more or less suits. The Tinaliya are, however, monotheists with no interest in "gods." They still use magic. The hostile races (Hluss, Ssu, Shunned Ones) have deities of their own. Magic is thus NOT controlled by the gods or even very relevant to them: spells are probes or thrusts that reach through the Planes to draw power through into Tekumel's world. The spell is then manifested according to a "gestalt": a "circuit board" (rather like a computer programme, by analogy). The spell is thus tailored to fit the theology of the temple or deity its creators follow. The temples, over the millennia, have developed "ladders" of spells, spell teaching methods, spell workbooks -- all sorts of methods of keeping their magic safely THEIRS. The same must be true of the Ssu or the Hluss. Quite obviously, these races do not care a whit for Ksarul or Sarku or any of the human deities. Not even for the dreaded Pariah Deities. It is not possible to talk to these races about "gods" or "magic" because communication is impossible, lacking, or always refused. As far as I know, there have been NO exceptions. Oh, I have had referees tell me that their favourite player character has a "pet" Ssu or a "tame" Hluss, who is a rebel against his/her/its own people and who tells them all sorts of dire secrets. I have sorrowfully had to reply that "their" Tekumel is no longer "my" Tekumel: this cannot happen on "my" Tekumel. Of course, if these good folk have bought the game, they are welcome to modify its parameters to suit themselves -- as far as I care at that point, they can have legions of dancing Ssu in pink Tutus -- but it then is no longer on the same plane of discussion as "my" Tekumel. All I can do is stand and wave goodbye... Magic has indeed been grabbed by the temples. Who else can successfully teach, practice, and use such dangerous powers? There can be very few "loose" wizards (or scientists) on any world. King Arthur always kept Merlin around the castle - - and those who developed the atomic bomb or deadly biological weapons are not likely to be let go free to wander around and possibly peddle their wares elsewhere, eh? >Also, magic in the Five Empires has become owned by the temples because >they grabbed the intellectual property rights to some useful skills. If >you take the religious dressing out of magic, what bag of magical tools >does this leave the enemy races to play with. Are they good at magic? Do >their minds work in the right way to pull through the energy from the >void? Is their magical research better because it has been liberated from >religious dogma? The religious "dressing" is really irrelevant to Tekumelani "magic," just as one's nationality is irrelevant to operating an electric circuitboard. Yes, the Ssu, the Hluss, and the Shunned Ones are good at magic. They have psychic abilities and powers of learning. Some say that somehow, through intermediate neutral races, the hostile races may have had something to do with teaching this kind of "magic" to humankind in the first place ...??? I am puzzled by your suggestion that "liberation from religious dogma" could possibly make "magic" "better" (or "worse?"). I don't see a real connection. One might jokingly ask whether Catholic Fathers can successfully use an electric razor as well as atheists can? Hmm? Tekumel is a strongly religious place, but the nature of magic is almost as "irreligious" as one can find. It works. It can be "dressed up" in a variety of costumes, but it still works. Another analogy is that of script (the alphabet): one can write Chinese in Roman script or in its own character, and it is still Chinese. Unlike many roleplaying games and "mythos," the basis of magic is not at all theological on Tekumel. It is very much dressed up to look like it, but look closely... >We need to know because they are out there waiting for our defences to slip. You are quite right. They ARE out there. -- And just wait until the Pariah Deities get into the act! The Hluss and the Ssu are very much afraid of THEM. Let me know if Nikun hiSayodla suits your idiom. If he doesn't, I will scout about for somebody else. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //23 [Moderator's Note: A new list member further commented on the Pariah ] [ Gods, and magic topic and is answered by Professor ] [ Barker. ] [>>> = Original Question from Paul Snow ] [>> = Professor Barker's Answer to Paul ] [> = New posings from Dermot Bolton ] [ = Professor Barker's Response ] >>The religious "dressing" is really irrelevant to Tekumelani "magic," >>just as one's nationality is irrelevant to operating an electric >>circuitboard. Yes, the Ssu, the Hluss, and the Shunned Ones are good >>at magic. They have psychic abilities and powers of learning. Some say >>that somehow, through intermediate neutral races, the hostile races may >>have had something to do with teaching this kind of "magic" to humankind >>in the first place ...??? I am puzzled by your suggestion that "liberation >>from religious dogma" could possibly make "magic" "better" (or "worse?"). >>I don't see a real connection. One might jokingly ask whether Catholic >>Fathers can successfully use an electric razor as well as atheists can? >>Hmm? Tekumel is a strongly religious place, but the nature of magic is >>almost as "irreligious" as one can find. It works. It can be "dressed >>up" in a variety of costumes, but it still works. Another analogy is >>that of script (the alphabet): one can write Chinese in Roman script or >>in its own character, and it is still Chinese. Unlike many roleplaying >>games and "mythos," the basis of magic is not at all theological on >>Tekumel. It is very much dressed up to look like it, but look closely... > >So considering that magic is not as rigid an art as the temples would have >us think, is there scope for worthy sorcerers to devise magics of their own? Yes. This is allowed for in the Gardasiyal rules. In "real life" on Tekumel, it takes years of experimentation, with lots of mistakes and sometimes sad results. (Read the Book of Ebon Bindings!) >Obviously if a mage were to create a new formula or "spell" he would have >to seek approval from the temple even to use it. I imagine the political >wrangles involved could be quite interesting, and knowing the Tsolyani the >chances of any recogintion or propogation of the spell could take centuries >or it may even just get left in the vaults. All of these results are possible. If the spell is not too innovative, it is usually added as a "variant" to the old spell nearest to it in content and effect. If it is really new and different, it may be secreted away in a vault somewhere -- as people have said of such "inventions" on our world as a razor blade that never gets dull, an automobile that uses only a thimblefull of fuel per thousand kilometres, etc. These may be "fables," or there may be some truth to them... > >I wonder how many 'hidden' magics have been wrought over the millennia and >what sort of magic knowledge resides in the deeper catacombs of the temples >of Ksarul and Thumis. The 'preserver of knowledge' phrase may well mean a >hoarder of secrets as much as anything else. And I'd bet my last qirgal >that the spells listed in the published tomes are but a small fraction of >the sum of enchantments known. You are absolutely correct. As readers of the Zocchi rulebook ("Swords and Glory," vol. 2) and "Gardasiyal" know, many spell variants were omitted in the latter -- mostly because they were simply extensions of some listed spell (e.g. a 50 foot range instead of a 30 foot range). There are, however, various really different spells that could have been added. Many of these were NOT included because their results are unpredictable and "shaky": like a new type of grenade that may explode in the thrower's hand. Others didn't suit the balance of the "game" very well and would have been problematic for gamers and referees. In fact, however, almost all of the IMPORTANT spells got into "Gardasiyal." I doubt whether players will require any more spells. I myself have always been against "Super Killer" spells because they unbalance the game too much. If a new spell is needed, and if the referee allows "invention" and "spell research," however, it may be possible to send it to the Blue Room where people can download it and use it optionally in their games. The goal is to walk a fine line between players who are too helpless and players whose mighty spells make them so powerful that warriors are useless, and the referee has to continually escalate his "monsters" and perils in order to keep control of the game. But this is "game talk." I'd rather talk Tekumel. >>>We need to know because they are out there waiting for our defences to >>>slip. >>You are quite right. They ARE out there. -- And just wait until the Pariah >>Deities get into the act! The Hluss and the Ssu are very much afraid of >>THEM. > >*Gulp!* I had some difficulty (and too little time) understanding the >recent spate of Pariah god material. Although I'm not sure I really want to >know too much anyway, for the good of my spirit-soul. However a summary of >the nature of the three, their goals, their spheres of influence and aims of >their worshippers would be most helpful. There will be more. She Who Cannot be Named is now apparently interested in Tekumel's sector of interdimensional space-time. >As a scholar of Ai Che (pesky learning spheres!) and considering my >encounters with their cultists in the past (the memory of the Jalush still >sends shivers down my spine) I feel such knowledge would be efficacious in >resolving future conflicts. Ai Che is such a pesky language. I myself am not enamoured of tone languages. So much has also been concealed under acres of tribal religion and "superstititon," too, that it's hard to winnow out the facts from the fancies. >Dermot >aka. The most noble Treshkoi hiVrazhimu, Scion of the Clan of Golden >Sunburst, Imperial Keeper of the Mysteries of the Ancients (Aircar >division), etc. >[remaining titles left out to save bandwidth :-) } Good luck! Aircars have a bad habit of crashing for reasons we no longer can fathom. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //24 [Moderator's note: Paul has some more to say about magic and the temples. ] [Administrative: I have just finished transcribing an article about the ] [ temple of Thumis, from a very old Tekumel Journal. I am ] [ in the final stages of proofreading and hope to have it ] [ on the ftp site sometime over the weekend (most likely ] [ Sunday evening). If any of you have the old Journals, or] [ any other Tekumel stuff that you can transcribe, please ] [ contact me for guidelines on writing. I have set up some] [ basic info on how to handle diacritical marks, etc. The ] [ more that volunteer, the more stuff we'll have on the ftp] [ site. ] [>> = Professor Barker's original reply ] [> = Paul' new questions. ] [ = Professor Barker's reply ] >>Would Nikun hiSayodla suit you? He is the >>son of Jerus hiSayodla, of the Blue hood clan, High Scholar Priest of >Jaikalor. >>Nikun is about 24 years old, unmarried, oldest of 3 children, and a budding >>priest in the Temple of Lord Ksarul.He is intelligent, reasonably good >looking, >>popular with the young ladies in his temple, and respected by his peers. >Thank you very much. I would be delighted to don the mantle of >Nikun hi Sayodla of the Blue Hood clan. However, for my identity to be >truly defined I must , like any Tsolyani, tie my existence to the honour >and prestige of the Clan. What do I know about the Blue Hood clan? It is a solid, upper or medium clan, related to the Clan of the Purple Gem, and based in a number of large cities throughout the central Empire. It is numerically small and local, but it is honourable and has a number of members who are officers, priests, and administrators in Ksarul/Gruganu enterprises and some in those of Hru'u/Wuru. >would guess that there are many Ksarul worshippers around me and perhaps >the Hood has hidden many of the clan's secret plans. Is it true that my >uncle Arksa is an initiate to some of the forbidden secrets of our >temple and also to the brotherhood who name themselves - the Ndalu? You are welcome to inquire from your clan uncle -- Arksa hiVayka is now retired and stays out of temple affairs, but he may indeed know some things. If he ever becomes senile enough to tell you some of those things, he -- and you -- will probably disappear, quietly and permanently. Uncle Arksa is too wise to give out any of the Ndalu Clan's dark secrets. >>I am puzzled by your suggestion that "liberation from religious dogma" could >>possibly make "magic" "better" (or "worse?"). I don't see a real connection. >Following the computer, programs et al. analogy, I was thinking >that the best computer might be made by taking one item from this >manufacturer, this one from another and that one from some other. >However, the clash of copyrights, patents and trademarks stops you making >the best possible computer from the resources. If in the case of magic >from temples, they all have _all_ the components but _only_ the dressed up >appearance is different (the box?) then I can see that they are not >restricted by their beliefs in using the tool of magic. So all projectile >bolts are just of "energy" - but the bolts of Vimuhla look like flame? etc >etc. It is a useful point to know. You are essentially correct. The differences are those of the size, shape, and details of the "spell conduit" through which the energy flows and from which it is manifested. In many cases, it is rather like trying to run Mac programmes on a PC or vice-versa -- or American software on platforms developed in other countries. It CAN be done, but it is complex and too involved for most computer users (like me!). >>One might jokingly ask whether Catholic Fathers can successfully use an >>electric razor as well as atheists can? Hmm? >And as a light hearted reply, rubber* is a wonderful substance >that can have many uses. However Catholic Fathers object to some of them >(well, at least one) because of their beliefs - even though rubber is only >technology and a tool. Beliefs can restrict technology or its development >as current debates on genetic engineering etc show. However, of course >no one would say that writing is a bad thing. >( * - OK - latex, I know) Right. There are some similar limitations on the uses of spell powers on Tekumel as well. For instance, the Temple of Sarku is not interested in spells that improve the local rainfall, although Lady Avanthe's people find this very important and useful. (Ever shot one of the Undead with a spell of Revivification? He will HATE you ...) >In summary, can we say that magic is so prevalent and so widely >used on Tekumel that its use is as contentious as the use of reading or >any other mundane tool that is so familiar that it passes unremarked in >society? But.. This raises another question. Just how common is sorcery >on Tekumel? Does it scare the peasants? I assume that the educated man >who has been to a temple school and toyed with the basics has no worries >about the idea of magic but may worry about the practice if it is on >him. Magic is prevalent enough that illusionists and minor sorcerers can make a Kaitar or two showing off giant Shen or flaming-eyed Serudla at village fairs. People know about sorcery, but it is not common enough -- and most folk are not wealthy enough -- to afford revivification spells, high-level healing spells, etc. Hence, the continued need for physicians -- and funeral directors from the Temple of Lord Belkhanu! People know about sorcery, they SEE sorcery performed (just as I can watch a stage magician), and sometimes if they are lucky they can benefit from sorcery -- but it is not so common as to make other endeavours and skills useless. >Oh well. - Time to return to my lessons on the lesser demons of the 10th >plane of Our Blue Lord. A goodly way to pass the time. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //25 [Moderator's Note: One of our illustrious list members, who shall ] [ go unnamed for now, sent this message full of ] [ some light hearted jests. :) ] Q. How many priests of Ksarul just it take to change a lightbulb? A. I'm sorry but that is on a need to know basis only. ---------- Q. How many priests of Wuru does it take to change a lightbulb? A. None, they'd rather stay in the dark. ---------- Q. How many priests of Hnalla does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Bulb? But the Supernal Lord of all is illumination enough! ---------- Q. How many Tinaliya does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Well that depends on a number of factors:- the height of said bulb, the maximum number of participents allowed, whether another illumination device is available and time period allowed for completion of the task. Of course the physical transmutation of matter into another form is a serious question and one that can only be answered within the appropiate forum. The very question itself is ambiguous and logically requires further clarification before a suitable response can be issued. etc. etc... ----------- Q. How many Livyani does it take to change a lightbulb? Report your sinful thoughts to the temple at once! *coughVrunebcough* ----------- Q. How many Militarists does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Well if we go for a full frontal assualt I rekon two cohorts, tops. Two cohorts! Cha! Give me just one cohort and I will lure it into broken ground and employ the embrace of Nayari to envelop the enemy. Ha! You speak like a brainless Chlen, you no nothing of the changing of bulbs! Brainless Chlen eh? You will pay for that remark with blood you Nakome scum! *the sound of a Duel ensues* ----------- Q. How many Demonologists does it take to change a lightbulb? A. First I will need a set of pre-pubescent triplets prefarably female. Next the eight interlocking squares of Djareva must be inscribed with precision upon a solid marble base using a mix of bodily fluids from the dead mother of the triplets. Next the litany of the summoning of the energies must be recited in Llyani, after which the three sacrifices should be disembowled with the ritual Ku'nur knife. Their innards should be made to spill into copper bowls and the summoner must drink a portion of each.... [rest deleted for reasons of sanity] ------------ Q. How many Pechani does it take to change a lightbulb? A. How can we change the bulb when the thieving Salavyani scum have nicked all the spare ones! ------------ Q. How many Salavyani does it take to change a lightbulb? A. So you need a new bulb eh? Well it just so happens that a cousin of mine has recently aquired a good selection, all at very reasonable rates too. Care for a deep fried grub? Now how many do you need....? ------------- Q. How many Mu'uglavayani does it take to change a lightbulb? A. First we retake the Chakas, then we change the bulb. ------------- Q. How many Omnipotent Azure Legion interregators does it take to change a lightbulb? A. Quiet scum! *smack* We ask the questions around here, now where were you on the night of... ------------ Q. How many priests of Thumis does it take to change a lightbulb? A. One to change the bulb, one to take account of Temple stocks, and one to assess the long term effects this will have on society at large taking into account historic examples and previous temple records on bulb changing. ------------ Do you think lightbulb changing should be one of the tests in the Kolumejalim? Thats enough for now.... :) ----- [Moderator's note: Some of them sure tickled my funny bone! Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //26 [Moderator's Note: I found I had time to ask a question. Here is my ] [ contribution. A boring topic, but maybe someone ] [ else will find it interesting. ] [ I finished the article on Thumis, and it is on the ] [ ftp site. Enjoy! ] >Hi. As a part time potter, when I am not working on the Blue Room, or > the ftp site, or transcribing an article, or gack! working at my > job, I wondered what the pottery of Tekumel looks like. Maybe > I might throw some stuff in Tekumel form. This may just be a bit > too boring for the list, but I would find a description interesting. There are nearly as many styles as you find on this planet. Red with white slip, black with white slip, beautifully painted mythological scenes, carved mythological scenes and glyphs, giant urns with rows of painted figures, tiny humorous pots with animal heads -- all different, from place to place, time to time, style to style, und so weiter... Bey Su potters are currently doing a glossy black style with light blue slip and red or ochre glyphs. These are done as plates with high rims, four-legged pots, ewers with tall necks shaped like Qasu birds or other creatures, round mug-like cups with handles shaped like animals' tails, etc. Jakalla is going through an Engsvanyali revival phase at the moment: elegant glassware, slender three legged pots in bird forms painted in brilliant colours, slender jugs with incised glyphs and pictures from mythology, flat plates with low rims, painted with mythological scenes and "dirty pictures" (the Hrihayal-Dlamelish influences, I guess). Tumissa prefers dull reds and ochres, Chene Ho an odd brownish yellow clay that is found only near that city, Fasiltum a dull black with bright orange-red glyphs of the Flame Lord. I suppose I could write a treatise, but I don't have the energy ...! Maybe you are the one who should write the treatise. [Moderator's Note: Ooooh, just what I need, another job! ;) ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //27 [Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay questions about clanhouses. Professor ] [ Barker replies. ] Dear Bob: >In attempting to develop the Clan of the White Crystal in Jakalla, >I have run into trouble. Surely the Clan of the White Crystal is >large and powerful in Jakalla, so much so that I cannot imagine all >or even most of the clan-members residing in the clanhouse. Would only >the more wealthy and powerful live there, while the poorer lineages would >live in more modest accomodations, either inside the city or outside >of its walls? Or is the clanhouse closer in size to a modern hotel, >with suitable accomodations for hundreds of people? Clanhouses vary. Jakalla, Bey Su, and Avanthar are very tight for space. Most members reside outside these cities in large clanhouses on their agricultural lands. Only 40-50 people may actually live in a clanhouse in a city at any one time, plus servants, slaves, and hangers-on. Actual lineages may number no more than 5-10, while wandering visitors may represent other lineages from other cities. The situation is always fluid and full of possibilities. > Further, what are the major lineages of the White Crystal clan, >and how do they relate to one another? I would think lineages would >tend to be like cliques inside a clanhouse, and that some lineages >might not like others. This is all true. The lineages within White Crystal are numerous, and I don't have a list right here handy. Some are Arsanmra, Charunai, Sankolum, Mrelsa, Tenkolu, Tlangtal, Tessuken, Marassu, Tetkuru, Zhotlu'e, Sanuklen, Takolu, Khursa, and Tukun. >It would be like a highschool, where the >athletes and the "brains" don't get along so well, and relations between >lineages may be relatively formal and distant. Or, is it more like >a family reunion picnic, where lineages are less important than >personalities, and one's lineage is only important in determining one's >wealth and influence, but has little impact inside the clanhouse, >otherwise? Both. Things can get difficult or easy, depending upon personalities and political and economic factors. Each city, each clanhouse, and each particular situation is different. In one city two lineages may be political/social allies, but in the next city they are at each other's throats, due to personality clashes or some historical event. A few cases are nation-wide and semi- permanent, but those are rare. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //28 [Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay also asked a question on Engsvanyali ] [ period temples. Professor Barker replies. ] >Yet another question from "he who is curious". What do tombs from >the Engsvanyali period commonly look like? Your description of the >1st Imperium tombs from "The Man of Gold" lead me to assume this is >the norm for burial architecture (the domes with the stela by it, and a >shaft under the domes); I would presume that the Engsvanyali norm would >be based on the Bednalljan, but be more rococo. Engsvanyali tombs differ rom place to place and period to period -- after all, the term "Engsvanyali" covers an epoch aout twice as long as recorded human history on earth from ancient Egypt to the present. The so-called "High" Period of Engsvanyalu (or Engsvan hla Ganga, as it is alternatively known) found the Priestkings building massive colonnades, within which there is a single tall stela of polished marble standing high on a platform, inscribed with the titles, deeds, etc. of the tomb's owner. Somewhere in the neighbourhood is a flne slab or series of slabs of very hard stone, underneath which is a tunnel filled with carefully interlocking stone blocks. Beneath these, in turn, is a series of chambers leading through a maze of tunnels to various false doors, traps, pits, etc., and finally to a corridor lined with storerooms for the goods of the deceased. The chief deity of the dead person's faith usually has a shrine along this corridor or at the end of it, facing in the appropriate direction. Altars, religious icons, etc. fill this place, and the remains of ancient sacrifices may still lie in flat platters amongst these objects. Somewhere here -- or back in the labyrinth -- is another series of staircases, doors, false tunnels, and traps that lead down to the burial place (or places: sometimes the deceased may be buried with his family, relatives, pets, slaves, etc., although the Engsvanyali did not practice the custom of slaughtering these people when the master died. (The Bednalljans did that.) There are more grave goods here, and more devious traps. The Bednalljans thought in terms of great blocks of stone or pits opening beneathe the feet of tomb robbers, but the Engsvanyali tend to be more delicate and tricky: e.g. corridors that turned or tilted, or suddenly opened into chambers filled with water or vermin. Tomb robbery in the Age of the Priestkings was not a healthy profession! All of the above applies to the wealthiest, of course: the Priestkings, their Governors, nobles, and high officials. Middle-class burials consist of flat stone or brick trapezoidal pyramids, on whose flat tops stand stelae engraved with the titles and deeds of the occupant. A single stone shaft then leads straight down to a massive plug of basalt or other hard stone that protects a very small chamber in which the deceased lies interred in a simple stone sarcophagus. Smaller graves around the perimeter of this chamber may contain wives, relatives, etc. One of the characteristic features of the Engsvanyali tomb builders is their dependence upon small, well-cut stones for walls, floors, etc. Some of these are actually interlocked with carved "keys," rather like a Leggo set. The ancient Bednalljans of the First Imperium prefer mighty stone blocks that are often so well joined and carved to fit one another that mortar is unnecessary, but the Engsvanyali are much more "dainty": trellises and lattices of marble and semi- precious stones surround the graves of the Excellent Dead, and the sarcophagi of the Priestkings glow with gems and gold. Those who collect Engsvanyali artwork can add further details and describe some of the finer pieces from this long epoch. The graves of the middle and lower classes are usually simple stone or brick chambers in one of the great "Cities of the Dead," filled with coffins, crammed with simple grave goods, and covered with sand and dirt to keep them hidden from the inevitable tomb-robber. A grave stone carved with "deeds" (usually quotations cribbed from some text) stands well away from the actual tomb itself, so that the location of the chamber cannot be recognised. Sadly, the tomb robbers have come to recognise all of the strategems and ploys, and in many cases an experienced thief can glance at a gravestone and point precisely to the location of the buried tomb below! Grave goods of the middle classes consist of personal jewellery, pottery filled with food and drink for the long journey to the Isles of Teretane, possessions, weapons, clothing, and all of the trappings of the deceased's life on Tekumel. Mummified dogs, cats, Kuni-birds, and other pets are often "sent along for company," and a few coins may be added as well to pay the guides and guardians along the Way. These tombs are not rich and will repay only the lowest and hungriest tomb-robber. Engsvanyali tombs consist of a great many styles and varieties, of course, ranging from domed chambers with stelae in front, to square blocks of black basalt that overlie deep grave pits, to towers on the tops of which the dead are laid out in terracotta coffins, to narrow, tricky tunnels that wind beneath the earth, to tall, thin triangular monuments built over labyrinthine corridors leading down and away to secret chambers far below, to -- almost anything. Some periods desired to return to the monolithic architecture of the Bednalljan past, of course, and only an expert in the iconography of these periods can tell which is Bednalljan and which is later Engsvanyali. Near the end of the Priestkings' period, just before the sinking of Ganga, it also seems that there was some sort of societal collapse. Tomb architecture suffered the same fate as civil and military building: poorly constructed edifices, flamboyant, bizarre, and rococco art styles, hasty burials, corrupted texts, and badly copied religious scenes fill the crowded necropoli, and the fine-cut stones of the Great Period give way to shoddy stucco, mortar, and brick. Most tomb robbers simply ignore such graves. Without knowing just which city, which period, and which particular necropolis site is wanted, it is hard to be more precise than this. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu [Moderator's Note: Another list member added a joke to the other list. ] [Q. How many Ahoggya does it take to screw in a lightbulb? ] [A. Eight. It takes eight Ahoggya for any form of screwing.... ] //29 [Moderator's Note: Phil McGregor contributes this article discussing ] [ Chlen Hide. It has numerous questions, but I am ] [ posting it to the list dircectly, since there is ] [ also much discussion within it. I will also send ] [ it to the Professor for comment. Message 31 will ] [ have the Professor's response. ] The Technology of Chlen Hide I've always had a great interest in the way in which technology has developed historically and have been interested in the technological background of the peoples of Tekumel as a result. Since the campaign I run (on and off) is *extremely* variant, this is of considerable importance to what can be done gamewise as well. In any case, the needs of the background caused me to consider that ubiquitous material of the Five Empires, Chlen Hide. Given that it can be peeled from the great Chlen without killing them and then, by dint of secret arts known only to the great tanning clans, turned into anything from semi-flexible armour to rigid swords and other blades with the strength equivalent of bronze ... how can this be? There is, as far as I aware, no naturally occurring material that can fill this bill here and now, so what's the case with Tekumel? I don't know for sure, but I have a possible solution. It's quite simple and elegant, too ... Chlen hide is a monomer base for a polymer (i.e. it's a chemical precursor to a *plastic*!). The way I see it, there are two possibilities -- * The pre-collapse civilisation preferred to use biotechnology for the production of chemical raw materials ... and engineered the Chlen into a creature that naturally produced monomers in its thick hide to reduce demand for petrochemical products. This seems inherently unlikely, as the use of an animal base for such a genetic engineering project would seem obviously less efficient than using a plant base. The only possibility is that the designers found that the use of a plant based technique was not feasible for economic or other reasons. * The immediate post-collapse technicians were desperately searching for a way to provide plastic materials for a civilisation that had almost completely depleted economically recoverable petroleum (or which could, in its shattered state, not create the industry needed to create the plant required for drilling and refining crude oil ... Tekumel was, after all, a pleasure world!). Either way, it seems that it is highly likely that a genetically engineered plant would be some sort of hybrid that would require ongoing technology to create each generation and which would, therefore, be unlikely to survive in the wild without such support. *Animals*, on the other hand, would be more likely to do so, I suspect. So, how do they treat the Chlen hide to transform it? Well, I suspect for a start that they do *not* treat it in the way that the inventors intended it to be treated. They would have been, perforce (cultural blinkers and all that) looking at "low tech" solutions that, with the complete collapse of their technology, became *high* tech solutions ... i.e. they may have been looking at quite primitive *20th Century* technology for the processing of the hides, and this is, unfortunately beyond the capabilities of the here and now locals. I would suspect that the hides were intended to be chopped up into pellet sized pieces for processing into thermoplastic materials (something like PVC, ABS, PETE, or PETN) and used there for castings, mouldings, or even spun thread. How do the locals actually treat it? I suspect that they simply cut it into shape and then use a combination of chemical processing, heat, and, perhaps, such "pressure" as they can manage, to polymerize the material. Armour would, probably, be polymerized fully only in the outer layers and still only partially or completely unpolymerized internally, making it more flexible and mouldable. Weapons and the like would be more comprehensively treated to ensure that they are completely polymerized right through for strength, even though retaining some flexibility. The precision construction required for a spinneret for making plastic thread (a la nylon) is certainly completely beyond the capacity of the locals. What is the practical effect of this revelation? Well, nothing really for most EPT/Tekumel GMs and Players (in *my* campaign, it's a different matter!), it's just an interesting speculation. Any comments or ideas? ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //30 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker's response to Phil's interesting ] [ Chlen hide article. Well, I goofed twice. The ] [ Last message was 29, I didn't put it in the title.] [ The reply from the Professor, this article, is 30,] [ not 31. Sorry! ] >The Technology of Chlen Hide >I've always had a great interest in the way in which technology has >developed historically and have been interested in the technological >background of the peoples of Tekumel as a result. Since the >campaign I run (on and off) is *extremely* variant, this is of considerable >importance to what can be done gamewise as well. In any case, the >needs of the background caused me to consider that ubiquitous material >of the Five Empires, Chlen Hide. > >Given that it can be peeled from the great Chlen without killing them >and then, by dint of secret arts known only to the great tanning clans, >turned into anything from semi-flexible armour to rigid swords and >ther blades with the strength equivalent of bronze ... how can this >be? There is, as far as I aware, no naturally occurring material that >can fill this bill here and now, so what's the case with Tekumel? I suppose the real case is that I wanted soemthing that would add to the "alienness" of Tekumel. "Steel" and "enchanted steel" were already ho-hum, after western fantasy (knights and castles and all that) had used them. In the game, of course, there are many "fantastic" things, substances, creatures, and other features that make Tekumel interesting and unique. One can always put any one of them under the magnifying glass, and until humankind gets out into space andfinds them -- and Tekumel -- they will alwyas remain just elements of "fantasy." >I don't know for sure, but I have a possible solution. Thank you! I am not enough of a chemist or scientist to devise such elegant solutions myself. >It's quite simple >and elegant, too ... Chlen hide is a monomer base for a polymer (i.e. >it's a chemical precursor to a *plastic*!). The way I see it, there are >two possibilities -- > >* The pre-collapse civilisation preferred to use biotechnology for the >production of chemical raw materials ... and engineered the Chlen >into a creature that naturally produced monomers in its thick hide to >reduce demand for petrochemical products. This seems inherently >unlikely, as the use of an animal base for such a genetic engineering >project would seem obviously less efficient than using a plant base. >The only possibility is that the designers found that the use of a plant >based technique was not feasible for economic or other reasons. Could be. I lack the knowledge either of technology or of the times before the Time of Darkness, to comment. Is it not equally possible that the Chlen were just a lucky find: an animal that possessed this unique quality? Other animals from the Pe Choi worlds lack the ability to produce Chlen-hide or anything like it, just as most Terran species lack the ability to produce certain poisons. >* The immediate post-collapse technicians were desperately searching >for a way to provide plastic materials for a civilisation that had almost >completely depleted economically recoverable petroleum (or which could, >in its shattered state, not create the industry needed to create the plant >required for drilling and refining crude oil ... Tekumel was, after all, a >pleasure world!). Either way, it seems that it is highly likely that a >genetically engineered plant would be some sort of hybrid that would >require ongoing technology to create each generation and which would, >therefore, be unlikely to survive in the wild without such support. Excellent idea! >*Animals*, >on the other hand, would be more likely to do so, I suspect. >So, how do they treat the Chlen hide to transform it? Well, I suspect for >a start that they do *not* treat it in the way that the inventors intended it >to be treated. They would have been, perforce (cultural blinkers and all >that) looking at "low tech" solutions that, with the complete collapse of >their technology, became *high* tech solutions ... i.e. they may have been >looking at quite primitive *20th Century* technology for the processing of >the hides, and this is, unfortunately beyond the capabilities of the here >and now locals. Right. Seems fair. The Latter Times swiftly lost a lot of technology, while other parts were preserved, sheerly by accident or because the owners of said technology went to extraordinary lengths to maintain it. >I would suspect that the hides were intended to be chopped up into pellet >sized pieces for processing into thermoplastic materials (something like >PVC, ABS, PETE, or PETN) and used there for castings, mouldings, >or even spun thread. This is what is still done with scraps of Chlen-hide used for chain-mail rings, sewn-on discs on various types of armoured coats, etc. Thread, to my knowledge, is not possible -- at least not any more. > >How do the locals actually treat it? I suspect that they simply cut it into >shape and then use a combination of chemical processing, heat, and, >perhaps, such "pressure" as they can manage, to polymerize the material. >Armour would, probably, be polymerized fully only in the outer layers >and still only partially or completely unpolymerized internally, making >it more flexible and mouldable. Weapons and the like would be more >comprehensively treated to ensure that they are completely polymerized >right through for strength, even though retaining some flexibility. The >precision construction required for a spinneret for making plastic thread >(a la nylon) is certainly completely beyond the capacity of the locals. You have described it almost exactly. The "baths" in which they soak the hide differ in the amount and type of chemicals used, and the methods of then cutting, moulding, and finishing each piece differ, too. These tanneries are usually far outside each city because of the smells and pollution. The secrets of production are not really "deep" secrets: almost any determined person can learnthem. But the Chlen-tanning trade is limited to a few special clans, which are not considered especially "honourable." Hence, most Tsolyani would think it beneath themselves to learn or experiment with these techniques. >What is the practical effect of this revelation? Well, nothing really for >most EPT/Tekumel GMs and Players (in *my* campaign, it's a different >matter!), it's just an interesting speculation. Any comments or ideas? Thanks for the input. I am not chemist or scientist enough to answer such questions. It reminds me of one time in Benares when I was passing a dye-works, and all the beautiful silks for saris were hanging out on lines. I asked an Indian friend about the dyes used -- and got back a lengthy and totally unintelligible disquisition that left me dithering! On Tekumel, I have to depend on others to help with features that are quite beyond me: e.g. astronomy (of which I frankly know little), dyes, metalworking, agriculture, etc. etc I am rather like a tourist who passes by, sees, is interested, but cannot possibly understand the technology and science behind what he sees. I recall one time a fellow sent me an 80-page questionnaire about Tekumelani plants: what are their growing times, how do they seed, do they have fruit or flowers, and many, many technical questions! I had to send it back with a plea that HE should devote some time to it and send it back to me so that I could put my "seal of approval" on it and add it to the compendium of "authentic" Tekumel material. Never heard from him again! If people out there want to try their hands at "science for Tekumel," please go right ahead. Please just try not to change the observable features of the planet, its societies, or its economic structure! If it's reasnable and usable, perhaps it can be fitted into the Larger Picture. [Moderator's Note: Well, here is an open invitation to make your creation ] [ part of the "real" Tekumel. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu