These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVES -- VOLUME 2 31 Archaeological ages and the Tlakotani 32 More on Chlen Hide 33 More on Chlen Hide Reply 34 White Crystal Clan in Jakalla 35 Starting Character Question 36 A Collection of Tekumel Info From Email 37 Starting Character Question Response 38 Starting Character Reply 39 More on Starting Characters 40 More on Starting Characters 41 More on Starting Characters 42 More on Starting Characters 43 More on Starting Characters 44 More on Starting Characters 45 More on Starting Characters 46 More on Starting Characters 47 Announcements 48 More on Starting Characters 49 Professor Barker's Project Priorities 50 A Treatise on Ahoggya (not "Real" Tekumel) 51 Map of Penom 52 More on Starting Characters 53 Map of Penom Response 54 Map of Penom Reply 55 More on Starting Characters 56 More on Starting Characters 57 Magic and Languages 58 Magic and Languages Reply 59 Magic and Languages Followup 60 More on Starting Characters *********************************** //31 [Moderator's Note: Dermot Bolton asks the following 2 questions and ] [ Professor Barker responds. ] >With regard to old Tombs. When I first started playing Tekumel some six >years ago it was with a group archaeologist friends of mine. The thing that >hit us the most when we visited out first underworld was how well preserved >it all was for something that was over 20,000 years old. My player characters often find materials too decayed to identify, much less use. The Underworlds also vary from VERY dry (as in ancient Egyp) around Khirgar, to soggy and totally mildewed (around Penom). My players have found sections of important "Tsu'urum" completely underwater -- and others preserved by the climatisation devices of the great Ancients still okay after 60,000 years. I realise this is rather unlikely, but I became bored with the very short "antiquity" one finds in Europe ("Gosh, Martha, it's almost a hundred years old!"), and hence I rook recourse to the science and climatisation expertise of Tekumel's long scientific past. Of course, this cannot apply to the Engsvanyali or to the Tlakotani Second Imperium -- they came long after the Great Ancients, the Latter Times, etc. etc. were all dead and buried -- but in my own campaigns I make allowances for this. Coins, stones, gold, and a few other uncorrodable materials are all that is likely to remain. "Magic" can be applied, of course, to make things last longer (cf. the relevant Thumis spell for books). >The problem is that there is no archaeological precedent for sites of >this age and degree of civilisation. Initially we found this a little >disturbing but soon carried on with the game regardless and began a long and >enjoyable campaign that still lives today. Glad you ignored the problem. These great ages are meant only to give players a sense of real antiquity. With sorcery, a dry climate, and lots of luck, the contents of the Tsu'urumyal can be made to last. After all, Tekumel IS a fantasy... >My question is what sort of decay can Tsolyani 'archaeologists' ,aka Tomb >robbers with a license, expect in tombs from the times of darkness through >to early second imperium? Were the standards of construction better in the >earlier civilisations? The late Engsvanyali through early Second Imperium remains are the most likely to have decayed. I have had players touch beautiful chests, woodcarvings, etc. and seen them slump into piles of dust. The earlier Engsvanyali stuff is more durable (some of the techniques of the Latter Times seem to have been maintained), while the Bednalljans have left largely stones, gold (and other metals that do not decay, either naturally or by sorcery), books written on leaves of gold, etc. The Llyani and the Three States of the Triangle have left almost nothing but stones, coins, gems, and fallen monuments. >The other problem is with artifacts. Except in all but the driest and best >sealed of chambers I would expect a high degree of decay of any steel or >organic goods. Any ancient writings would have long gone unless inscibed on >stone or blessed by the preserver of wisdom. Pottery would remain (just >your field Chris) but bodies would instantly crumble to dust if disturbed. You are absolutely right. Iron and untreated steel appear as heaps of corrosion. Only magic can preserve it. Almost all organic goods simply fall to dust and blow away. Chlen-hide becomes large blackish flakes and disappears. Pottery and magically protected artifacts are another story. Bodies fall to dust, unless protected by some spell, cloth and paper are instant goners when the tomb is opened! I am afraid that the "game" tends to obscure this "reality." >My point is that GM's often don't realise the full implication of 20,000yrs >+. In a recent article in Scientific American on the Mesopotamian city of >Mashkan-shapir it explains how little is left of a city that has been >relatively untouched, after only four thousand years. Just how rare are >those seemingly frequent examples of ancient sites found in Tekumel and how >well preserved are they? You are quite right. The referee must make allowances for decay and the passage of time. ---------------- >The basis of our great and glorious Empire of Tsolyanu has always been the >rule of the Tlakotani who were often revered as God-Kings, but what is the >origin of the Empire? Records are very clear as to the origins of the other >great clans such as my own glorious clan of Golden Sunburst and other noble >clans like Sea Blue and Cloak of Azure Gems, but when researchers look into >the Tlakotani the picture becomes more obscure. This is deliberate on the part of the Tlakotani. In Avanthar the great Book of Deeds contains all of these early facts, but no one is permitted to consult it. The Tlakotanis are very sly and secretive about their origins. Somewhere in the north, it is supposed, since the Petal Throne itself comes from Malchairan in N'luss, according to legend. Not much more is known -- publicly. >My question is, during the time of no kings just who were the Tlakotani, >where were they from and how did the first Emperor unite the lands to become >one? And what was the name of the first Tlakotani? All questions that will only gain you a trip to the Ultimate Labyrinth if asked too loudly... The honour of the Dynasty demands respect -- and a goodly amount of silence. Someday I will try to tell this tale -- in a place where the Tlakotani cannot see it and take revenge. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //32 [Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay responds to Phil McGreggor's Chlen Hide ] [ article. ] Phil, your solution to the riddle of Chlen-hide is brilliant! However, I have a different idea in mind, more in line with the Professor's original concept as described in the books. I should also add that the Professor told me that the Ssu used Chlen hide before humans came to Tekumel, obtaining it by trade. This means that the Chlen-beast could not have been genetically engineered just for Tekumel after the Time of Darkness. I always envisioned the Chlen-beast as having a hide more akin to a chitinous shell than leather. The tanners peel off large sheets of the shell, soften it in a chemical process, molds and cuts it, and then re- hardens it in another process. I am not a chemist either, and I don't know if this is physically possible, but it works for me. I would guess the chemical composition of the shell would either include silica (from the grasses the Chlen eats) or possibly other minerals locked in a semi- flexible molecule; possibly its structure could be like bone, with a mix of the flexible protein collagen, and the stiff crystalline apatite. Apatite can be dissolved by acid, leaving only a soft, rubbery "bone" that looked like the original, but was only made of collagen. Bend, cut, mold and form this collagen into the desired shape, and then use a different chemical process to re-"plate" the collagen with apatite or even another mineral to stiffen it. Without a sample of the actual hide to test, we may be unable to test which of our theories is more fitting. --Bob Dushay Dritlan, the Legion of Obscure Books 1st Imperial Heavy Scholars ------- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //33 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker adds to Bob's message ] >Phil, your solution to the riddle of Chlen-hide is brilliant! However, >I have a different idea in mind, more in line with the Professor's >original concept as described in the books. I should also add that the >Professor told me that the Ssu used Chlen hide before humans came to >Tekumel, obtaining it by trade. This means that the Chlen-beast could not >have been genetically engineered just for Tekumel after the Time of >Darkness. The Ssu and Hluss seem to have had acces to the Chlen before humans arrived on Tekumel. The original beast seems to have been native to the Pe Choi worlds, and there must have been interstellar trade of some sort back then. > I always envisioned the Chlen-beast as having a hide more akin to a >chitinous shell than leather. The tanners peel off large sheets of the >shell, soften it in a chemical process, molds and cuts it, and then re- >hardens it in another process. I am not a chemist either, and I don't >know if this is physically possible, but it works for me. I would guess >the chemical composition of the shell would either include silica (from >the grasses the Chlen eats) or possibly other minerals locked in a semi- >flexible molecule; possibly its structure could be like bone, with a mix >of the flexible protein collagen, and the stiff crystalline apatite. >Apatite can be dissolved by acid, leaving only a soft, rubbery "bone" >that looked like the original, but was only made of collagen. Bend, cut, >mold and form this collagen into the desired shape, and then use a >different chemical process to re-"plate" the collagen with apatite or even >another mineral to stiffen it. No idea. I wish I knew more chemistry! The stuff is not really "shell-like" or "chitinous" in feel -- rather more like thick layers of calloused "skin." These peel off in sheets of varying thickness. They are quite unlike the Ssu integument which "unrolls" like a paper towel from a roll, all soft and flexible and smelling of something like cinnamon. As far as I know, nobody has ever found a use for Ssu-hide or been able to tan it. Since I can't provide any Chlen-hide at the moment, we're rather at a loss for a solution to this discussion. ------ Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //34 [Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay asks some questions about the White Crystal ] clan in Jakalla. ] >Professor, I am preparing a second campaign to introduce beginners to >Tekumel to the game. I am starting in Jakalla (as so many others do), and >I have selected the Clan of the White Crystal as my starting point because >it allows a full mixture of religions. You have already supplied me with >some of the major lineages of this clan, but it occurs to me that you can >supply me with information about the "real Tekumel" so my campaign need >not be too far from the "true state of affairs". >1. Who is the Clan Head in Jakalla, and what is he like? I had selected >Neqo hiArsanmra, because in spite of his unimpressive height and impressive >girth, he is a mellifluous speaker and a skillful politician, but I could be >wrong about his status. You have the right man. Neqo hiArsanmra is still clanmaster. He's a tough old bird, but he has helped the clan prosper, in spite of the civil war -- or perhaps because of it since he has sold grain and hides and other supplies to Prince Eselne, to Prince Rereshqala, and to the Imperium. >2. What are the origins of the clan? How old is it, and what is known about > when and where it was founded? What were its early members known for? Supposedly Engsvanyali, like its "parent," the Clan of the White Stone, it is one of the agricultural clans of the Engsvanyali Empire. Its members often became local officials, and now it is famous for its numerous bureaucrats all across the Empire. No one knows when it was founded, but it is supposed to have been during early Engsvanyali times somewhere near Jakalla or north along the River. >3. Is there a lineage that is considered "unpleasant" or difficult by most > of the other lineages in Jakalla? Who is the most influential member > of that lineage currently residing in the Jakalla clanhouse? How old > is that lineage? I selected Qolyemu hiCharunai, perhaps because the > habit of the children to call him simply "the Qol". I did find him > personally unpleasant, I confess. He told me that the Charunai lineage > dated back to late Engsvanyali times. Qolyelmu is usually a lineage name and not a personal name. Try Vurosa hiTukun, who is more like the sort of businessman you want. He is clever, rather dishonest, and tremendously wealthy and influential. The Tukun lineage is said to date back to a hero of Dormoron Plain, but this is a fiction: it is probably no older than late Ensgvanyali times. >4. Some more general questions. What do the high clans do with their dead > in Jakalla? The EPT map of the city shows there are not enough surface > structures in the City of the Dead to accomodate every clan, and I don't > believe a wealthy and powerful clan like that of the White Crystal would > bury their dead in individual anonymous holes, like the peasants. I > figured one of the unlabelled oval-shaped buildings was "The Hall of the > High Clans", a common entrance to the Underworld areas where all the > high clans have their parts of the Necropolis. Incidentally, is the > gate through the city walls closest to the Necropolis really called "The > Gate of Bones", or was I deceived by the urchin whom I asked in the > Necropolis? The map of Jakalla never did have a scale, and hence the big buildings are MUCH too big, and the smaller houses, shops, etc. are much too small and constricted. The map should be redrawn, but who has time or energy? Most of the clans have lands around Jakalla anyway, and clanmembers tend to live outside of the city on their own lands, rather than cramp the clanhouse in town. The noble dead are indeed buried in mausolea underneath certain sites in the City of the Dead. Many of the minor clansfolk are buried in lesser graves in small graveyards on the clan lands, and some of the really minor -- slaves, labourers, etc. are just put into the ground with no rites or grave goods. In a couple of years the incsects do their work, and the "grave" can be used again for somebody else. All of the high clans do NOT bury their dead in one mausoleum, of course: each has an entrance that leads to its own burial sites. The map is, as I said, badly skewed and constricted and should be extended to fit some reasonable scale. I drew it long ago when I was still working with Tsolyani concepts of drawing pictures instead of real mapping. They never discovered "scale" but made the more important buildings larger and the minor ones smaller or non-existent. The gate you refer to is called "The Gate of Bones" by some of the lower classes. Its proper name is "The High Gate of Chaimaktel." She was the mistress of Ssirandar I. The name is doubtless apocryphal -- the gate wasn't built until the last Ditlana -- about 800 years ago. I'm going to try to enclose a Filemaker Pro file of White Crystal clansmen in my lists. You will need Filemaker Pro to open and use it. I am sure you can get a copy somewhere -- it's a good database. [Moderator's Note: Since FM Pro is Mac only, as far as I know, I am not ] [going to send it out as part of this message. I will binhex it, and put ] [it on the ftp site. I guess we'll need another new secion, called dbs. :) ] [Look for the dbs directory, wcrystal.hqx will be the file name. ] Good luck. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //35 [Moderator's Note: Floyd Brigdon sends the following. ] To the Luminaries of the Assembled List: I have recently been preparing to begin a Tekumel campaign and, in reading articles about starting up (both in >The Eye< and online) I have heard it mentioned several times that it is a good idea to begin the characters as barbarians or refugees, characters unfamiliar with Tsolyani in general. From your collective experience, how important do you think this is? I would appreciate any advice or suggestions that you might provide. Floyd Brigdon ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //36 [Moderator's Note: This discussion is an amalgamation of mailings between ] [ the Professor and one of our list members, Alexander ] [ Stojanavic. It actually covers a number of topics, so ] [ look for these notes to separate topics and provide a ] [ basic roadmap for the message. ] Here's your Zna'ye question answered (from my previous letter): MARB: I have become much more involved with the Pariah Deities, and I have produced a booklet on the language used by their hierarchy, called Sunuz. I hope it can be published one day. I have also done a Livyani grammar and script, and a Yan Koryani grammar to go with Bill Faulkner's handsome Yan Koryani script. I redid his Tsolyani script and also tried (poorly) a Salarvyani font. It was so complicated that I could never master it. Alex: I found the reference in the new character generation rules to Zna'ye (the language of She Who Must Not Be Named) very intriguing. It is almost a cognate (serbian 'j' is pronounced like 'y') for the slavic 'znanje' -- meaning knowledge or learning. Hmm... secret knowledge/language - I like that MARB: I never did a Zna'ye grammar. I don't think the Goddess would approve... I hope to get out more of the Pariah Deities' scripts and history, now that Sunuz is finished. But I am getting too old and decrepit to write very much. (I am now retired on physical disability.) I'll see about getting the Sunuz article out, though. [Moderator's Note: The Professor has an article on Sunuz he is shopping ] [around to publishers. Stay tuned here for information concerning its ] [release. ] Alex: talking about words in Tekumel languages that appear to e borrowed from Terran sources: Sort of like the korun-koran cognate in Tsolyani and Arabic! MARB:Really? I never thought of them as cognates. How perceptive you are! Alex: What degree of syntactic "connection" is there between the languages used by followers of the Pariah Deities: Sunuz, Zna'ye, etc.? (Shared syntactic constructions) MARB: Quite a lot, but these languages are not linguistically related -- only through shared theological views. Alex: Did the worshippers of the Pariah Dieties act in collaboration to one another? MARB: Not very much. Some. Alex: Did this affect the development of shared cyphers, dialects, codes, etc? MARB: Not really. Their temples are very secretive. Alex: Has historical transformation of these languages, which are all classed as Ancient, led to a situation where the original syntactic correlations have all but been obliterated? MARB: No. Your linguistic questions are too technical to go into here. I will look at them later, I hope. Sunuz has no tones, but the Ai Che group does. They are probably not historically related but only share the same interest in the Pariah Deities. Zna'ye has tones, also. Alex: Are classifiers and/or particles used (I like to think that they are!)? MARB: Yes. Sunuz has classifiers, too. Alex: What sort of structures exist for expressing temporal events? Is Zna'ye radically different in its treatment of temporal relationships from the Khishan- family languages? MARB: Not really -- until you get into the substructure of the linguistic world- view. Alex: I have always personally speculated that several of the Shadow Gods, I should say "aspects" of them, are really heavily "water-downed" images of some/ all of the Pariah Dieties? A cthnonic-substratum of the modern Livyani pantheon? I like to believe that some of the Pariah-languages (to use a shorthand) were philologically related to more "well known" languages such as Ancient Livyani (which I hope is Duru'ob -- I am hacking this out at the office over lunch -- so I cannot be certain). What is your opinion on this? You may be right. I can't get to specifics on this without writing a book! ----- [Moderator's Note: Another short topic from the conversations of Alex and ] [ Professor Barker, covering creation of short sketches ] [ of the remaining Tekumelani languages. ] Alex wants to do short sketches of various languages. I'd love to do this. I can only hope to find the energy and willpower to do these thumbnail sketches. Engsvanyali is troublesome because there ARE a number of book titles, names, and the short text in the Book of Ebon Bindings in this language, and it would take me a while to scrounge up my notes and get them in some shape to send to you. Look at the book titles marked "Engsvanyali" in "Gardasiyal," vol. 3. Ai che is a little easier because there are fewer texts, names, etc. It is a tone language (high, mid, low, rising, falling), with monosyllabic and bisyllabic roots, and not very much morphological "grammar." Rather like Chinese, but with modifications. ----- [Moderator's Note: Tidbit about the ancient city of Purdanim. ] Alex discusses his proposed module: The campaign module I am going to start working on will be Pariah Diety-centric, with considerable travel to the underworlds of Purdimal, Purdanim(and you thought it was lost forever beneath effluvial mud! Nexal point travel is a wonderful thing!) Last group that travelled by nexus point to the ruins of old Purdanim were unhappily suffocated in topsoil deep beneath the surface. Couldn't get their magic to work down there -- something about the proximity of metal...? >Ch'ochi, Hmakuyal, Penom >(site of ancient Bednalljan ruins dating back to the reign of Emperor >Gamullu mssa Burusa (15th Emperor) to the north of the city) and other >sites! Never heard of this particular Emperor. Not surprising. The Bednalljans were divided into many dynasties and sub-dynasties. ----- [Moderator's Note: Alex and Professor Barker talk about the ruined city ] [ of Hmakuyal. ] Alex' Question: Hmakuyal is a "ruins" -- was the city razed for Ditlana and then >never rebuilt? Was something "unspeakable" found below? Isn't it one of the >more ancient sites of Ksarul worship? Any information would me appreciated! Hmakuyal is situated in a great volcanic "sink: a roundish depression that is deepest on the western side. The walls of this place have been honeycombed with caverns, passages, etc., and great images of Lord Ksarul, his Aspects, his mythological exploits, etc. are carved here and thhere all around. Travellers come in from the east, enter into a maze of pilgrimage centres, tombs and graveyards, and fallen temples dating from Engsvanyali times. Then they go on into ring after ring of caverns, shrines, and the like until they are deep within the western wall. There are dwelling places there, too, monasteries for priests (and priestesses), great meeting halls, and other elegant things too numerous to recount. The city apparently fell into ruin at the end of the Engsvanyali Period and was only partially restored. It was not Ditlana that is the cause but rather internceine warfare between the latter-day priesthood of Ksarul and the growing power of the incipient Tlakotani Dynasty. This is all forgiven now, but many remember. Lord Ksarul's temple has had to be polite to the Tlakotanis, and indeed, a few Emperors have been followers of the Blue Prince. ----- [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers a question about the (still) ] [ mysterious Fu Shi'i. :) ] >Question: What has happened to Lord Fu Shi? What are his origins? He strikes >me as someone with very strong ties to the Pariah Dieties -- as evinced by >his trafficing with the He'esa. I always thought he was the grey eminence >behind the Baron Ald -- working inchoately to spread the "dark faith" by >means of stealth and intrigue. What better way to "open the way" for the >Goddess than to subvert/manipulate a desperate human (Ald) into providing >the means....he definitely seems like bad news. Couple that with his immense >thaumaturgical skills (the guy could enslave Mihalli - no mean feat!) and >you know trouble is not far behind. You are correct to some extent. Fu Shi claims to have come over the North Pole, via the "Black Ships" that sometimes appear in the northern seas. He is a character I have kept somewhat secret because I have a use for him later. ----- [Moderator's Note: Alex asks about ancient cities, etc. ] Alex puts in an aside about one of the Aspects of Hru'u: The name of the Lord of the Obsidian Mirror (37th Aspect of Hru'u). His name is Methudalai. Ugly critter. MARB on the topic of the Lost City of Purdanim: >>The last group that travelled by nexus point to the ruins of old Purdanim >>were unhappily suffocated in topsoil deep beneath the surface. Couldn't get >>their magic to work down there -- something about the proximity of metal...? >True, but if the Pandect of those who Journey Beyond is correct, the >hidden/forgotten libraries, studies, and temples may hold many of the >secrets Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa was so interested in! But thanks for the >warning. Good luck! >>> Ch'ochi, Hmakuyal, Penom >>> (site of ancient Bednalljan ruins dating back to the reign of Emperor >>> Gamullu mssa Burusa (15th Emperor) to the north of the city) and other >>> sites! >>Never heard of this particular Emperor. Not surprising. The Bednalljans were >>divided into many dynasties and sub-dynasties. > >Primarily a nondescript entity -- the site has significance, if my informant >Jokalto Ze'el hiSemunaika from the Temple of Hru'u's information is >reliable, for what the Bednalljans built over -- a site from the Latter >Times. At the deepest levels one encounters, I am told, not only signs of >the twisted metal corridors of the Ancients, but signs of tenancy by the >dread Ssu. Indeed, Ze'el has hinted that a major Ssu Hive was built >here! The archaeological team headed by the Temple of Ksarul will soon >discover the veracity of her outrageous claims! Although they are supposed >to be our nominal allies, the Temple of Hru'u's agents are just as conniving >as our brethren at the Temple of Ksarul! >The Temple of Ebon Light(beneath ancient Ch'ochi) is also on the "to be >investigated list" -- although recorded as having been destroyed -- things >can be rebuilt (especially if done slowly and secretively in the Tsuru'um >deep below the surface...(more on this in the campaign module) > >>Fine. I think that is a good idea. > >Then, I shall send it along as soon as I finish it! >>As for the reasons for the destruction of Hmakuyal, it was not Ditlana that is >>the cause but rather internecine warfare between the latter-day priesthood of >>Ksarul and the growing power of the incipient Tlakotani Dynasty. This is all >>forgiven now, but many remember. Lord Ksarul's temple has had to be polite to >>the Tlakotanis, and indeed, a few Emperors have been followers of the Blue >>Prince. ----- [Moderator's Note: Alex asks about the Temple of Ksarul, the Black Ships,] [ Fu Shi'i, and other miscellaneous topics. ] >Who was/were the proteges of the Temple of Ksarul that vied for power with >the Tlakotanis? What were some of the other "lineages"/clans which vied for >supremacy in this area (Tsolyanu)? Ito (too far east)? Vriddi? Sea Blue? >Might of Ganga? Just what gave the Tlakotani's their "edge"? If the Petal >Throne itself was, at it is whispered, an ancient artifact, what other >things did the Tlakotani "founders" uncover? This is a complex question that requires time for a proper reply. In brief: the temple of Ksarul believed that its ancient lineages (from Dormoron Plain) gave it an edge: Dark Moon, Dark Fear, etc. These clans trace themselves back to Lord Ksarul's bodyguard units (right or wrong). The Red clans of the southwest (Red Sun, Red Sword, etc.) joined with the Hnalla and Avanthe clans of the central Empire to combat them. The Tlakotanis have since pushed all this history into semi-secret "closed stacks" in their libraries. They would like the ancient rivalry forgotten because they want to maintain unity against the Mu'ugalavyani and other rivals. The fall of Hmakuyal is thus blamed on a variety of other causes -- including an invasion by minions of the Pariah Deities! The Petal Throne is said to have been shipped from Malchairan in N'luss (where it was apparently found) to Tsolyanu at the end of the Engsvanyali Era. It was set up as an icon of the Tlakotani during the reigns of the first Emperors (who can be sure of just which one?) < End Ksarul topic > >Question: Can you give me a thumb nail stech on the current polotical >situation in Tsolyanu. Who was that Tlakotani prince that emerged after the >Kolumejalim? What really happened to Mridobu? How about Mirusiya - is he >still rally troops to storm the capitol? What has been happening wiht the >Urunen? Wasn't there a diplomatic mission dispatched to their Antarctic >domain some years ago? I need this sort of information for a brief overview >section for my module -- I don't want it to be too stale (i.e. acting as if >Hirkane Tlakotani was still emperor!) You're asking questions that each need a treatise to answer! In VERY short form: there never was a true Kolumejalim because Dhich'une declared he had invited his rivals, and nobody showed up. This is what caused all the fuss. Afterward, Taksuru (the young Ksarul prince) declared himself in Bey Su and gathered support. He lost it by inexperience, unfortunately, plus the hostility of his rivals and people who should have supported him. Eselne refused to give up the Gold and instead grabed most of the northwest; Mirusiya retired to Fasiltum with his Vriddi mistress Elara ( -- if it's really she?). He tried to penetrate Avanthar a couple of times but never got in. Rereshqala came out of retirement, built up an army, and took over most of the south. He tried for an alliance with Eselne but failed, then with Taksuru, who accepted but had no real troops to give him. Mridobu reappeared, managed to enter Avanthar when Dhich'une was not there (I know -- Emperors are not supposed to leave the Golden Tower, but Dhich'une sneaked away to attend a major ceremony in the City of Sarku). For two days Mridobu ruled in Avanthar, but then Dhich'une's Undead came up out of the basements and did ugly things. Dhich'une is now back, ruling, but weakened. Nobody's been down to see the Urunen for a long time. Who knows what they're doing! The High Prefect of the Omnipotent Azure Legion fled there after Dhich'une took over, and for awhile one of the minor Princesses was with him. Nobody has any idea where he is now, but the Princess retired, gave up the Gold, and went back to being a sculptress, which she had always wanted to be. < end Current situation in Tsolyanu topic> >Question: I was always curious about that Ksarul-worshipping emperor - >Kushetl Nikuma (The Spider??) -- what really happened to him. Is he cooling >his heels on one of the demon planes - condemned for eternity? Or was he >obliterated by the agents of the Pariah Deities (I know this is a long >shot)? Any information would be appreciated on this. No idea, really. His fate is sealed in the great Book of Deeds in Avanthar. Only Dhich'une has access to this now. >I want to send you a list of Mihalli lexemes I would like to have >"translated" - along with a request for a simple set of sentence patterns: >declarative, interrogative, and imperative. That way, I can just generate >Mihalli text titles to my heart's content. I think that it was the Mihalli >themselves that brought the "sorcerous" potential of Nexal energy to the >stranded races of Tekumel after the Time of Darkness. First acting as >instructors...then gradually perceived as "too dangerous to be trusted", and >finally almost completely wiped out by the last of the great planetary >bombs...Is this possible? Proably not. It can't be proved one way or the other of course -- too much time has passed since the Latter Times. Most human legends show the Mihalli as alien, whimsical, and quite uintelligible. They never did show much interest in human society or in "teaching" humanity. A VERY, _VERY_ few have ever even bothered to talk to us. This is why Aiya in "Flamesong" is so unique, but, then, he's under the baleful influence of Lord Fu Shi'i. What the Tsolyani temples teach as "Mihalli" language is probably a joke to the Mihalli themselves: "Pidgin Mihalli." On the level of "Great White Father teach- um brain surgery!" There are only a few texts (that are readable), and these may be later simplifications and distortions by people like the wizard Metallja. Sure, I can help you with some lexemes and a little grammar, but it is going to pretty sorry stuff. The "Great" Mihalli inscriptions (in the caves out in what is now Mihallu -- occupied almost exclusively by humans, as you proably know) are still 99% unintelligible. You should have heard the silly theories last year at the conference the Temple of Thumis held at Paya Gupa! >I just read the Hnalla article - good stuff. especially about that aspect of >Ksarul -- so it was the Doomed Prince (or more precisely, an aspect of him) >which "tutored" Pavar to some extent...interesting...that Ksarul character >is really complex. Did the tutoring lead to a "break through" on Pavar's >part, or did Ksarul "intend" for the little gimp to make contact with >Hnalla?!!? Who knows? You'd have to ask Pavar, if you ever meet him on one of the Many Planes. One of my players did, and he learned almost nothing. Pavar has now gone on to other hobbies. >>> Question: I was always curious about that Ksarul-worshipping emperor - >>> Kushetl Nikuma (The Spider??) -- what really happened to him. Is he >>> cooling >>> his heels on one of the demon planes - condemned for eternity? Or was he >>> obliterated by the agents of the Pariah Deities (I know this is a long >>> shot)? Any information would be appreciated on this. >>No idea, really. His fate is sealed in the great Book of Deeds in Avanthar. >> Only Dhich'une has access to this. >Would it be permissable if I developed some material on his "fate" and >"history" and ran it by you? I like collecting odd bits and pieces out of >the sourcebook material and weaving it into little "storylines" useful for >campaign development. I have a good idea of where he might have been "borne >off to by demons"... The problem is that your "history" might mess up some of my other devious plotlines. I don't mind you working up "alternate universe" history, or doing bits that are put out as "legends," "possible history," etc., but I hate to give out juicy "truths" because it takes away some of the mystery of Tekumel and forces my history into directions I may not want to go. Legends for use in your own campaigns are just fine, but they cannot be "authentic TRUE Tekumel history" unless I give them some pretty deep thought... >Maybe I should add a small scenario which leads to the Secret City of Dlash. >I had planned for a trip to it in my campaign, so perhaps I should script >that as well. It would be sort of like touring Europe during the Plague >Years! (:-|) Please don't deal with Dlash -- it forms a large part of my third novel, already partially written. Try one of the Naqsai cities on the Southern Continent, or do something with some one of the other interesting sites: Mechaneno in Pechano, Nuru'un, etc. I don't have whole volumes about them, and you could prowl around and see what you like. < end Dlash city tour topic> Oh boy, that is about it. I did not include much/any of the module related stuff, or our discussions about "synchronization of linguistic, ethnological material. Let me know if you want it. By now, you have also already received my responses to your responses on my ....oh, I am getting dizzy. ----- [Moderator's Note: Alex asks abut the black ships of the North. ] >Could I get just a word or two about the "black ships"? Who sails these >ships, and from what lands are they rumored to come from? (Or is this >another MAJOR plot twist that you don't want to divulge???!) I don't mind talking about it -- it's common knowledge in the ports of Yan Kor and Pijjena. The problem is that it takes a LOT of energy to hunt out my facts and type them into an e-mail letter! The Black Ships come from over the Pole -- apparently there are ways around the ice cap that lies about 30 hexes north of the northernmost hex you can see on the Zocchi map. The Black Ships contain leather-clad traders and warriors who seek gold, furs, fancy goods, etc. in Yan Kor and the south. They do not often disembark, and they never leave their ships to travel southward by land. Some seem to have sorcerous powers, like Fu Shi'i, while others are reputed to be fine warriors and sailors. They have not been a major problem, which is why they are not much mentioned in any of my books. I suppose one could take passage on one of these ships and go across the pole. But rumour has it that those kingdoms are ruled by Hokun, who use humans as slaves. ----- [Moderator's Note: This message deals heavily with linguistics. Alex has ] [quite an interest in one of the things that makes Tekumel unique, its ] [languages. This deals with Engsvanyali and Classical Mu'ugalavyani. ] The language (a language I am developing for my Tekumel module called Na'ashya) bears some common phonological elements with the Khishan group (like the tl), but has diverged greatly over the past four thousand years. The last two thousand, with the virtual isolation of the archipelago, has accelerated this even further. There is, however, a relationship to Zna'ye and Sunuz. Why? It seems that the servitors of the Pariah Deities have adopted, at least for purposes of communication with the Tekumelani, variations of these languages as a sort of "diplomatic language". Hence, Na'ashya is replete with "loan words" and creolizations. After several thousand years, these almost ritual-languages have become quasi-standardized among the adherents of the Goddess. This is sort of like the relationship of late Latin and, say, Medieval French -- lots of "phonological variation", a semi-common "technical vocabulary", and plenty of local "color". This sounds pretty good. One may wonder how "diplomatic" contacts were maintained over the great distances involved. Tubeway cars? Nexus points? The phoneme that I have trouble with is the "tl" -- any suggestions, aside from the Nahuatl reference, on how to pronounce it? I am not certain I am doing it justice -- just like when I try to form the "retro-velar "k" sound from Arabic) For /tl/ put the tip of your tongue where you usually pronounce /t/, then open the lateral (cheek) passages and make an "ell" sound. You now have a "t-lllll" combination. Now you need to stop vibrating your voacl chords to make the "ell" sound voiceless -- as in Welsh Llewellyn -- and you get a kind of hissing, lateral fricative. The voiceless /l/ fricative is used in Tsolyani and is written /hl/, and the affricate /tl/ is also used. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >By the bye, how do you want the apostrophe pronounced in your words for >Heresiarchs in the title of your book: "Tipika Hereziark'a?" (Do I have it >right?) Engsvanyali has no glottalised consonants, and a "k" followed by a >glottal stop is extremely rare. The "'" has to represent some sound -- it can't be there just to look cute. -- Oh, I know you know this. Why am I repeating it? If Engsvanyali does not really support a glottalized consonant, then the title should go to Tipika Hereziarka'a. Classical Mu'ugalavyni actually had glottalised consonants, as does modern Pe'e. Now you rarely get names like "Dhich'une" in which a glottal stop comes as part of a cluster with a stop or affricate. Does Engsvanyali have a hard 'z'-sound -- or would it be closer to a slavic 'zh'? What's a "hard" "z"? Like what? The "z" in "zip?" If so, then, yes, it does have a /z/. It ALSO has the /zh/ in Zhukov. How about word initial 'h' -- is it "silent" like in Spanish (I hope not)? No, the /h/ in ALL Tekumelani languaeges is either a real voiceless glottal fricative (/h/) or else it is not there! Every letter in the title is meant to be pronounced -- and the vowels are supposed to be very clear and "crisp" -- no English (eyyya, oouuya, whatever..). Does the a'a bit fit a bit more into your concept of Engsvanyali. Yes. I usually use the Spanish vowels as examples of the vowel systems -- until they do not fit any more. Thus the "umlaut u" and its counterpart, the "unrounded back u" (the Turkish "i with two dots") have to have special symbols. I once used "y" for this (e.g. Hry'y), but then everybody said "Hreye-eye" or something equally discouraging. Now I use the umlaut u and let the readers stumble as best they can. As for the /q/, it is nothing more than a "k" made down deeper in the throat. Try saying "kool" as far back your throat as possible. This is a serious matter for those who learn Arabic, Urdu, or any of a host of Amerindian languages: e.g. Arabic /tahrik/ and /tahriq/ or /kul/ and /qul/. I never use a "q" as just a cute way of writing a /k/. Similarly, I don't use it just to jazz up the appearance of names. Try a name like /qwanu/ versus /kwasa/ -- or, with a syllabic back vowel instead of the non-syllabic /w/, a word like /kuar or / quadar/. These are all different in Khishan languages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sure, I can help you with some lexemes and a little grammar, but it is going to pretty sorry stuff. The "Great" Mihalli inscriptions (in the caves out in what is now Mihallu -- occupied almost exclusively by humans, as you probably know) are still 99% unintelligible. You should have heard the silly theories last year at the conference the Temple of Thumis held at Paya Gupa! But, still enough to read/decypher the "Book of Eyes"! By the way, why would the Mihalli have been so interested in Ancient Technology -- unless their own civilization had a technological basis as well? Or was Mihalli just the language used to transcribe the "Eye Manual"? I suspect the Lords of the Latter Times had a lot to do with making Mihalli a language for arcane books. I don't think the book was really written by any actual Mihalli -- just put into the language the humans THOUGHT was Mihalli. What the Mihalli said about it is not recorded. They do have technological devices (the "Globes of Instant Eventuation"), but how they see technology is not intelligible to the human mind. Alex's Note: [Moderator's Note: The language bits interest me, and I am sure that there ] [ are others who find it to be of interest. There is also ] [ enough other interesting info included around the ] [ language bits to be considered good Blue Room material. ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //37 [Moderator's Note: Dermot Bolton responds to Floyd's question about ] [ the starting of new players to Tekumel. ] > I have recently been preparing to begin a Tekumel campaign and, in >reading articles about starting up (both in >The Eye< and online) I have >heard it mentioned several times that it is a good idea to begin the >characters as barbarians or refugees, characters unfamiliar with Tsolyani in >general. > From your collective experience, how important do you think this is? I >would appreciate any advice or suggestions that you might provide. Floyd Brigdon Greetings Floyd, I recently ran a few games at SAGA which is a fairly major con here in Sydney Australia. I used the 'Just Off the Boat' scenario provided in >Eye 4<. The PC's in this scenario are Islanders from Falesa near Ssamris Isle whose territory has recently been claimed by the Mu'uglavayani. The villagers consider themselves Tsolyani and sail off to Tsolyanu to get help for the Island. I provided players with plenty of background info about Tekumel and their clan and origins, etc. For this I used Patrick Bradys 'You're not in Kansas Anymore' introductory article and some of the notes provided in 'Just off the Boat' again form >Eye 4<. All but one of the fifteen or so players involved had no experience of Tekumel, most had not even heard of it. With a world as rich as Tekumel throwing a novice in at the deep end and expecting them to act like a nobleman is a bit much to ask. Players need to be introduced gradually and learn from their mistakes. The sessions I ran went remarkably well, they were run almost freeform with minimum dice rolling but maximum description, narrative and role-playing, as I believe Tekumel should be. The response was one of enjoyment and a 'I'd like to play this again' attitude. With a scenario where the players are complete barbarians the lack of Tsolyani-ness can detract from the flavour of the game. PC's need to start behaving like Tsolyani at some point after all. In a scenario where the PC's start off in the Sea Blue clan they could soon find all the new information and behaviour too much to take in and as a result become hostile to Tekumel. I have run and played in all sorts of Tekumel games. As a player and GM I have found that the best introductory games give a good flavour of Tekumel but not a fatal overdose. So the idea of 'foreign' Tsolyani speakers whose ways have deviated from the current norm of the Empire does the trick nicely. The other main point is to prepare your players, time and some good background info is the key here. Hope that helps and enjoy playing devious tricks on newbies, especially if they should act ignobley! Dermot ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //38 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Floyd's question about how ] [ to start characters out on Tekumel. ] > I have recently been preparing to begin a Tekumel campaign and, in >reading articles about starting up (both in >The Eye< and online) I have >heard it mentioned several times that it is a good idea to begin the >characters as barbarians or refugees, characters unfamiliar with Tsolyani in >general. > From your collective experience, how important do you think this is? I >would appreciate any advice or suggestions that you might provide. Dear Floyd, The question of where to start with a world as complex and non-Western/mediaeval as Tekumel is a tough one. I originally thought that "Foreign Barbarians" (the "small boat landing in Jakalla" scenario) was the best method of getting people into Tsolyanu and then slowing acculturating them to the society, history, etc. Over the years this has worked well enough -- many such "barbarians" are now military officers, priests, officials, etc. in Tsolyanu, with a few in Livyanu as well. The "alienness" of the world can be alleviated by a good referee who has read the basic materials, and the players themselves then cooperate to solve further problems. The idea of "barbarians" becoming Imperial generals is, after all, not unheard of -- compare later Rome. As time went on, more and more players wanted to jump into the society with both feet: some status, some money, some allegiance to a temple, nation, etc. It worked to have new players take an already-constructed character out of my character boxes, get a few basic ideas as to what to do, and then go at it with a group of older, more experienced players who had missions, Tsolyani friends, societal responsibilities, and the like. I still do this with occasional "guests" who drop in and want to play for a single evening or so: I dig out a card and tell them where to start. Most people quickly pick up on goals, laws, and methods and go right at it. My most recent attempt to introduce Tekumel gently is enshrined in Book One of "Adventures on Tekumel": start everybody as high or medium clan, already with a family, a religion, a set of ideas, some money, some property, and the wherewithal to act at once in Tsolyani society. This works only if new players are willing to READ the booklet, roll up characters, and develop the skills, knowledge, and all the rest. As an alternative, I added "Archetypes" to the recent game publication: these are characters who can be picked up and played at once, either to start a new campaign without the slow process of "rolling up" or as "guests" to be played by occasional players. All of these methods have their positives and negatives. It is very hard to choose between them. Bob Dushay says he prefers "foreign" Tsolyani -- people who speak the language and know enough about the manners and customs to get along, but who have been "living abroad" or something and are not conversant with the whole culture. This is okay -- it works, too. The problem is that such "foreign Tsolyani" have to have been living SOMEWHERE, with somebody, and doing something -- ??? Explaining a youth who grew up in the wilds of Jannu or Rannalu is about as hard as introducing a character who grew up in the suburbs outside Jakalla! (Not in the city itself -- that is, actually, too complex, perhaps!). I think the character generation booklet is the best method currently, although I still would not introduce the group to downtown Jakalla or Bey Su. Start in a remote region of the Empire, perhaps, where things are simpler: Men are Men, and Chlen are Chlen! Try a remote town in the mountains up near Hekellu in the northeast, or in the foothills of the Chakas, or even in the breadbasket of the Empire in some village or town that is a backwater. I still may not have the right answer here. Everybody is different, and what suits one group may not suit the next one. If the unfamiliarities get to be too much, one can always simplify still further: a single Tsolyani ship cast away on a deserted island somewhere. Pitcairn Island, anyone? Check with your players and see what they will enjoy most. When in doubt, ask a player character ... Good luck. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //39 [Moderator's Note: Roger Pearse adds on to the discussion of starting ] [ characters. ] >I recently ran a few games at SAGA which is a fairly major con here in >Sydney Australia. I used the 'Just Off the Boat' scenario provided in >Eye >4<. The PC's in this scenario are Islanders from Falesa near Ssamris Isle >whose territory has recently been claimed by the Mu'uglavayani. The >villagers consider themselves Tsolyani and sail off to Tsolyanu to get help >for the Island. I provided players with plenty of background info about >Tekumel and their clan and origins, etc. For this I used Patrick Bradys >'You're not in Kansas Anymore' introductory article and some of the notes >provided in 'Just off the Boat' again form >Eye 4<. This question of clan and barbarians has always baffled me, when thinking about starting a group in Tsolyanu, or running a one-off. I want to run something that feels like Tsolyanu, which is why I hesitate. I wonder if someone could clarify my thinking. The problems starting up are these: A) If the players are barbarians, do they have clans, or clan consciousness? If they do, how do we impart this to the players? If we tell them they are members of Azure Gems (for example), or of several clans, how did they get to be members of such mainland clans? But actually, I suppose this is a reasonable approach... the bumpkin country cousin from the offshore island where all they know is Hluss are bad for your health. If not, they are always going to be aliens in Tsolyanu, and unable to really participate in Tsolyani society, and are restricted to dungeon-crawling, as no-one of good clan will want to talk to them. B) If they contact the local clan house, what sort of treatment are they entitled to, and what is expected of them? Is this a quick way to get food and lodging, plus a patron of some kind? C) Sorcerors and priests: where do they/did they get their training - or do we presume they start as ordinary people and then start training in Jakalla - which doesn't seem to make for good role-playing. It doesn't seem that the PC's can sensibly be barbarians in any normal sense. Rather, they must be country cousins from an incredibly cut-off part of Tsolyanu, where there is hardly any knowledge of the country or its customs. Thoughts, anyone? ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //40 [Moderator's Note: Boy, this starting Character question has really lit ] [ up the ole email wires. I have 5 messages forthcoming ] [ on the topic. All will bear the same title as this ] [ message. Mike Cule responds to Roger's and Dermot's ] [ messages. ] I've always preferred to use the 'displaced foreigner' schtick with players who are new to Tekumel. I published the best intro scenario I ever did in the first issue of EYE OF ALL-SEEING WONDER: this had a whole small tribe of refugees setting up house in the Foreigners' Quarter of Jakalla. You might like to look it up. The advantage is that your players can start by playing characters as naive about Tekumel as they are. You never have to say: "Well, actually you'd already know...." Afterwards you can start to introduce native Tsolyani characters. Or if you have a couple of players who know something about Tekumel then you can cast them as the patrons/employers of the immigrants. That said, if you are willing to write a huge amount of briefing material then by all means jump straight in.... -- Mike Cule ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //41 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti adds this to the Starting characters thread. ] On "How to Start": I can only speak from my own experience regarding Tekumel. I began my first character in Professor Barker's campaign in Jakalla... and then got ON the boat! Arjai met me when he was a high-clan (Azure Gems) young Ksarul priest, and was tossed immediately into foreign intrigue and high-level interplanar exploits. While this has by no means failed to entertain, it has not exposed me to the nuances of Tsolyani daily life. My second character, a warrior of Chiteng, was only briefly annoyed by my manipulating his fate. He was assigned to carry a message to Prince Mirusiya before I could get to know him too well. As far as I know he's still out there somewhere, giving "lessons" to the little girls in the Temple of Hrihayal when off-duty... However, this third fellow I'm harassing is turning out rather well. Prof. Barker recently encouraged his Thursday-night group (three hours to go and counting!) to retire its regular characters for a while. We took up new characters rolled right out of the generation modules. The scenario is quite interesting. An low-level Avanthe priestess has been willed or given deed to a fief in the mountains northeast of Sokatis. Several parties tried to take it from her by one means or another, including the Governor of Sokatis who offered her 27,000 kaitars for the property. Upon visiting the place, we discovered that Ssu and Salarvyani incursions had forced into hiding those locals who had not been killed. An abandoned temple nearby apparently was holding a demon at bay, and an iron mine abandoned nearby had yielded a healthy stash of iron... hidden beneath bales of centuries-old grain in the cellars. The temple of Hru'u sent their top agent to try to confisticate the abandoned temple from the priestess... This has been a fun campaign. The minutiae of rebuilding and running a fief are engaging, and get one right down into the complex interactions of Tsolyani society. Matters are minor enough not to attract Imperial attention, but large enough to be risky to life and limb, with rewards attractive to any normal Tsolyani (just one of those pig bars in the basement is worth a lot of money!). And the setting is remote enough to involve both aliens and foreigners, and allow for self-guided action without having the OAL or the city guard stepping on your toes. All in all, I'd say it would be a good scenario for any new player. One learns just who-talks-to-whom. For instance, my character is an adjutant to the Majordomo (there being only we two and the fiefholder in the administrative hierarchy), and while the Majordomo and I talk to the Pechani hunter who wandered out of the woods, the fiefholder would not deign to do so unless pressed. Courtesy and noble action are encouraged: had I not been noble and respectful of the visiting Horokangai monks , they might not have been inclined to help out when the Salarvyani came for our iron hoard. By being noble and civilized to the Horokangai, they saw fit to slaughter the Salarvyani after those of us in the tower had been variously poisoned, stabbed and/or locked in the former treasure vault. This level of play -- below the bottom of the top, but at the top of the middle -- has a nice familiar feel to it. Enough freedom to allow for choice and courage, the city near enough for intrigue, and middling-high stakes encouraging risk but not foolhardiness. A good setting under which to get a feel for the game. Arjai hi Vaisoner, Priest of Ksarul, Cloak of Azure Gems Clan. Tarinu hiKirisaya, Warrior of Chiteng, Golden Bough Clan. Adlar hiFershena, Warrior of Karakan, Red Sword Clan. Bob Alberti, Priest of Ethernet, Programming Geeks Clan. [Very nice title Bob, would the Programming Geeks Clan be high, medium, or ] [low. We all know that Ethernet is one of the Tlokiriqaluyal as no one I ] [know considers Ethernet remotely connected with Stability! :) ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //42 [Moderator's Note: Mike Cule adds more to the Starting Characters ] [ discussion. ] Roger Pearse seems to have trouble with something that seems obvious to me: >This question of clan and barbarians has always baffled me, when thinking >about starting a group in Tsolyanu, or running a one-off. I want to run >something that feels like Tsolyanu, which is why I hesitate. I wonder if >someone could clarify my thinking. The problems starting up are these: > >A) If the players are barbarians, do they have clans, or clan consciousness? If the PCs are true barbarians then they do not come from any part of the Five Empires. They are from far off the maps and are refugees from some unpleasant- ness in their homelands. They are not even 'foreigners', ie citizens of the other Empires. They probably don't speak Tsolyani at all well (remember to make them roll their language skills in tricky social situations!) and are totally naive about the complexities of Tsolyani life. (But they will pick these up in a hurry or end up on the Impaling Post!) This is the situation as depicted in the classic EPT opening and in my article in EYE 1: Welcome to Jakalla. On the other hand in EYE 4 there was an article proposing starting with a group with Tsolyani citizenship but from a remote coastal island. These are *not* barbarians. Just country cousins with dung between their toes and ears. They have a clan, citizenship and the language (which they probably speak with the Tsolyani equivalent of an 'ooo-arrr' Mummerset accent). This is a halfway house between the barbarian opening and starting with full Tsoyalni citizens. >If not, they are always going to be aliens in Tsolyanu, and unable to really >participate in Tsolyani society, and are restricted to dungeon-crawling, as >no-one of good clan will want to talk to them. It is possible but hard to make a living as a barbarian foreigner in Tsolyanu. True you are the lowest of the low but you have something to aim for: Imperial Citizenship. And you can be of great use to Imperial factions who have dirty deeds they won't trust to anyone with any face to loose... >B) If they contact the local clan house, what sort of treatment are they >entitled to, and what is expected of them? Is this a quick way to get food >and lodging, plus a patron of some kind? With the country cousins, you get treated like country cousins: which is as well or as ill as the GM feels like treating you. With the true barbarian, well unless you brought your clan with you you're in for a lonely time until you accumulate enough money to bribe....ummm, make that induce some clan to adopt you. >C) Sorcerors and priests: where do they/did they get their training - or >do we presume they start as ordinary people and then start training in >Jakalla - which doesn't seem to make for good role-playing. The country cousins would probably have enough priests around back home to get at least basic training but nothing like what was available in a great city. True barbarians would have the tribal shaman to teach those with a talent for psionics or ritual. -- Mike Cule ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //43 [Moderator's Note: Dermot adds some more the the Starting Characters ] [ discussion. ] Some answers to Rogers followup. >[Moderator's Note: Roger Pearse adds on to the discussion of starting ] >[ characters. ] .my original stuff snipped. >This question of clan and barbarians has always baffled me, when thinking >about starting a group in Tsolyanu, or running a one-off. I want to run >something that feels like Tsolyanu, which is why I hesitate. I wonder if >someone could clarify my thinking. The problems starting up are these: >A) If the players are barbarians, do they have clans, or clan consciousness? In the scenario I described the PC's belong to one of three families or lineages. All are related but vary in status. There is no official 'clan', but as members of the village of Falesa they are all of the same clan except in name. i.e. the relationships and structures are the same but over 200 yrs the name has been lost. It is not necessary to have a clan name as they do not have to distinguish themselves from other 'clans', they are all from the Island of Falesa. >If they do, how do we impart this to the players? If we tell them they are >members of Azure Gems (for example), or of several clans, how did they get >to be members of such mainland clans? But actually, I suppose this is a >reasonable approach... the bumpkin country cousin from the offshore island >where all they know is Hluss are bad for your health. >If not, they are always going to be aliens in Tsolyanu, and unable to really >participate in Tsolyani society, and are restricted to dungeon-crawling, as >no-one of good clan will want to talk to them. They are related to a low or medium clan (can't remember which one) that originally settled the Island around 2020 AS, or rather kicked out the Red Hats. Unfortunately they don't know this, yet. >B) If they contact the local clan house, what sort of treatment are they >entitled to, and what is expected of them? Is this a quick way to get food >and lodging, plus a patron of some kind? If they just turned up with an unvalidated claim they'd be kicked into the street. If they manage to get some proof from old records or their claim is supported by a patron they may get the treatment they deserve. This is the main sub plot of the game, recognition as citizens! >C) Sorcerors and priests: where do they/did they get their training - or >do we presume they start as ordinary people and then start training in >Jakalla - which doesn't seem to make for good role-playing. The traditions would be handed down over generations. Although this means that certain rituals and sorceries would differ from the modern norm. Also they are not cut off *completely* from the greater world just a backwater. The recent histories even state that they have had a couple of visitors from Tsolyanu, these events were then followed by good harvests. These differences give the players a license to act away from the Tsolyani norm, they also give the GM the chance to play up the 'heresy' factor. :-) >It doesn't seem that the PC's can sensibly be barbarians in any normal >sense. Rather, they must be country cousins from an incredibly cut-off part >of Tsolyanu, where there is hardly any knowledge of the country or its >customs. Mostly correct except the knowledge available is up to the characters to decide from what they have learned from the handouts. The professors comments of 'ask the players' ring true here. If the players want to play high flying nobles let them, but for the uninitiated, like convention gamers, this halfway house is often the best way. Just my thoughts, Dermot ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //44 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker adds more to the Starting Characters ] [ discussion. ] [>>Dermot's original writing ] [> Roger's writing ] [ Professor Barkers writing ] In reply to Roger Pearse: >>I recently ran a few games at SAGA which is a fairly major con here in >>Sydney Australia. I used the 'Just Off the Boat' scenario provided in >Eye >>4<. The PC's in this scenario are Islanders from Falesa near Ssamris Isle >>whose territory has recently been claimed by the Mu'uglavayani. The >>villagers consider themselves Tsolyani and sail off to Tsolyanu to get help >>for the Island. I provided players with plenty of background info about >>Tekumel and their clan and origins, etc. For this I used Patrick Bradys >>'You're not in Kansas Anymore' introductory article and some of the notes >>provided in 'Just off the Boat' again form >Eye 4<. >This question of clan and barbarians has always baffled me, when thinking >about starting a group in Tsolyanu, or running a one-off. I want to run >something that feels like Tsolyanu, which is why I hesitate. I wonder if >someone could clarify my thinking. The problems starting up are these: >A) If the players are barbarians, do they have clans, or clan consciousness? If you start your players off as "barbarians," you can let them come from a clan-oriented tribal society -- or, for more alienness, from one that has no clans and rough social equality. The latter would face real culture shock -- almost as much as westen Europeans and Americans do when confronted with Tekumel. Depends on the referee and his/her abilities. >If they do, how do we impart this to the players? If we tell them they are >members of Azure Gems (for example), or of several clans, how did they get >to be members of such mainland clans? But actually, I suppose this is a >reasonable approach... the bumpkin country cousin from the offshore island >where all they know is Hluss are bad for your health. A bumpkin cousin from ANYWHERE in Tsolyanu will know his/her clan and will be familiar with the concepts. People are born into clans, but occasionally they may be adopted into clans, too. Players who start as barbarians should make friends, give gifts and bribes, and try to get into a clan as soon as possible. >If not, they are always going to be aliens in Tsolyanu, and unable to really >participate in Tsolyani society, and are restricted to dungeon-crawling, as >no-one of good clan will want to talk to them. Barbarians can be hired by Tsolyani contacts and can thus participate in society, as long as they keep their place and don't get impudent or mouthy. Slowly, with care both by players and referee, they can be integrated in society, working their way up from "dungeon-crawling" (dangerous, that! Tomb- robbing is a capital offense, if caught...) and simple adventures (e.g. bodyguarding, caravan-guarding, errands, delivering messages, and the like) to something much higher when they get used to the place. You can always start out with the first volume of "Adventures on Tekumel," as I said in a previous submission.If you wish, you can follow the solitaire adventure books (also from TOME) to gain further insight into the societies, geography, history, etc. etc. >B) If they contact the local clan house, what sort of treatment are they >entitled to, and what is expected of them? Is this a quick way to get food >and lodging, plus a patron of some kind? If they are "country bumpkins," they can take a letter from their own village/ town clanmaster and show it anywhere in the Empire at another clanhouse of their clan. They'll be given lodging according to their stations, food in the communal refectory, advice on local business, sights, etc. etc., fresh clothing, baths (the Tsolyani are fastidious), a massage, a slave girl or two for the night, if they are of high lineage or wealthy, etc. etc. The clanmaster can then direct them to meet possible patrons and contacts. As long as they are courteous and try to help the clan, they will be welcome to stay. Of course, they must try to find jobs or ways to earn money so that they can return something to their clan. The business or job must also be of a level approved by that clan: e.g. a member of Sea Blue or Cloak of Azure Gems is NOT going to become a slaver or tomb- robber and expect his clan to coddle him! A member of Nighted Tower, however, could easily apply for a job as an embalmer (and work nights as a tomb roober), and his clan would approve. >C) Sorcerors and priests: where do they/did they get their training - or >do we presume they start as ordinary people and then start training in >Jakalla - which doesn't seem to make for good role-playing. Training takes too long in the game. Use the books mentioned above to gain initial spells. If you want quickies, use the Archetypes in "Gardasiyal" as guides. >It doesn't seem that the PC's can sensibly be barbarians in any normal >sense. Rather, they must be country cousins from an incredibly cut-off part >of Tsolyanu, where there is hardly any knowledge of the country or its >customs. We've done both barbarians and country cousins. The main thing is that clans provide contacts, loans, jobs, status, etc. I recall one player who had incurred a huge det. He was about to run off, commit suicide, or just drop his character because he feared being slammed into debtor's prison, impaled, chased by assassins sent by creditors, etc. I gently asked, "What clan are you?" "Cloak of Azure Gems," he answered. I said, "Go see your clanmaster." He was not from this city, but he went anyway. The clanmaster heard him out and then said, "What is the matter with you? Ten thousand Kaitars? It would be a shame upon our clan to owe a debt so small! Take this writ and hand it to your creditors. Then smile politely and walk away." The player was so thunderstruck that he talked about it for days. He had almost insulted his clan by NOT coming to them! Tekumel demands non-player characters who are not just "thickies" or "statistics." They are real people, with real interests, needs, and tastes. Non- player wives are another way to provide help, advice, and other plot features. Non-player officers, soldiers, priests, etc. cannot just be used as adjuncts to the player's personality: they may be brave, cowardly, loyal, disloyal -- whatever. Try telling a poorly paid guard to enter a dangerous ruin and take blows for you! Maybe... if he really likes you... (A roll of the non-player reaction dice). Establish a group of non-player characters, with goals and interests, and let the players lean on these people until they can function in the society for themselves. This works for me. Hope it works for others! ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //45 [Moderator's Note: Alex Stojanovic adds to the ever growing Starting ] [ Characters description from a very different viewpoint. ] I wrote this in response to R. Pearse's excellent comments in msg 39. >This question of clan and barbarians has always baffled me, when thinking >about starting a group in Tsolyanu, or running a one-off. I want to run >something that feels like Tsolyanu, which is why I hesitate. I wonder if >someone could clarify my thinking. The problems starting up are these: >It doesn't seem that the PC's can sensibly be barbarians in any normal >sense. Rather, they must be country cousins from an incredibly cut-off part >of Tsolyanu, where there is hardly any knowledge of the country or its customs. > >Thoughts, anyone? I have to agree strongly with Mr. Pearse - the foreigner-on-a-boat starting option is really far too constraining and ambiguous to be of much use. However, I find the "country bumpkin" option to be faced with similar problems as the "stranger in a strange land" option. Instead, I propose a starting scenario in which the players are already members of Tsolyani society - and not just 0 circle acolytes or Kuruthuni in one of the legions. No -- they would be members of the elite of the Empire -- relatively high ranking officials, career military officers, upper level priests(Jokalto+). A scenario would be bult around them. Examples would include: the disintegration of the Tsolyani Empire in civil war, trouble with the Mu'ugalavyani, skullduggery among the temple factions/power struggles, infiltration of the Tsolyani bureaucracy by foreign agents, helping a disgruntled Tsolyani Prince (Eselne, Mirusiya) etc. In my own campaign, players start out in the mid-to-upper echelon of Tsolyani society (typically 5-8th Circle/Rank, high and very high clans, excellent lineages, cultured and educated). The philosophical position I take on this is that the best way to understand Tekumel is to be immersed in it! Don't waste time in set-up scenarios (i.e. getting off the boat, finding slum lodgings in the Foreigners' Quarter, getting hired by that Tsolyani Nobleman to be his bodyguard...etc.). Instead, BE the Tsolyani nobleman! Players must be given cues and information on how to behave, and then set loose to "work out the details" of their lives as Tsolyani citizens. The proposition is that players are best acquainted with Tekumel by viewing things from the inside, as members of their respective societies. This has a corollary, however. The GM must provide detailed biographical and "contextual" information for starting players: clan, lineage, childhood friends and acquaintences, early life experiences, mentors, idiosyncracies, personality, physiology, and --my favorite-- languages and educational information. This typically runs to about a 500-1000 word biographical sketch, appended to the the player character sheet. Another strategy that I personally enjoy is to not provide players with any standard "character sheets". Only provide them with the biographical material, their clan, lineage, occupation, rank/circle, and any skills/languages that they have acquired. Translate all quantitative ranking into qualitative terms. (i.e. skills become ranked as either "neophyte, elementary, advanced, expert") The purpose of this is to remove the reliance on mechanics from new players - who usually come out of systems which are rule-heavy (AD&D). Move the mechanics to the background, and Tekumelani culture and history to the foreground! In my camapign, I generate all of the player characters (using Swords and Glory, vol.2), develop their backgrounds for the players, then provide the biographical material to the players, along with non-statistical information about the player characters they will be "inhabiting". No one, aside from the GM, knows their HBS factor, Body Damage Points, Psychic Reservoir, Intelligence, etc. They only know what they can see, learned, and experienced. In the real world most people have no quantitative basis for measuring most of these "attributes" anyway. (standardized intelligence tests aside - most people don't know their scores) It is a legacy attribute of 1st generation rpg systems that characters are even defined by using d100s, tables, etc. I try to consciously break with that mentality. All of the mechanics of the character generation system are masked out -- leaving the players and GM to concentrate on "personality development". The GM must ensure that players who do not have the prerequisites for certain occupations/skills be made aware of that fact. (Example: A player's character, a yound acolyte on the Temple of Thumis named Omel hiKuroda, who wants to get "sorcerous training" (but lacks the intelligence minimum), would be taken aside by a mentor within the temple and told, "We all like you very much, but you just don't quite seem to have what it takes to really go very far in this area...perhaps you might like to try the administrative brach of our temple -- I have a good friend there who would love to meet you...etc....etc.) In this way the "barrier" to the underlying mechanics stratum is never reached -- and players are treated as "real people" -- not amalgamations of d100 roles and table lookups. This goes a long way to overcoming new player anxiety about Tekumel - since they do not have to "worry" about the mechaics system (Gardasiyal, EPT, Swords and Glory). By placing players "in medea res" (in the midst of things) with enough context, the need for all of those thrilling "I just arrived in a boat at Jakalla..." can be obviated and one can procede to the intriguing scenarios: political infighting amoung the temples, covert assassination and subterfuge by the secret societies (Ndalu Clan, Cusp of Night, etc.), Real politik between Tsolyanu and other nations (such as the recent Mu'ugalavyani developments), etc. This is not to denigrate the foreigner starting option. It may work very well for some groups. I just find that players are much better when they have something to lose -- their prestige, position, wealth, "power" -- and not when they are "fresh off the boat" and desperately searching for a job/adventure to take them out of the slum hellholes they find themselves in. This gives the GM a better opportunity to manipulate and steer players within a scenario/campaign -- by playing on their "exalted positions" -- and the Machiavellian machinations which are ubiquitous in cosmopolitan Tsolyani/Tekumelani society. People who have something to lose are usually far more interesting (in their reactions) than those who have nothing to begin with. The point is this: create a situation in which the player is lost in the part -- threaten his position in the hierarchy(somebody wants his job), put him in a precarious political situation (will he sign an oath of allegiance to the new Emperor being circulated by the newly "reformed" (read: Sarku-worshipper infested) Omnipotent Azure Legion?), etc. This is a philosophical position: I do not believe that RPGing on Tekumel is best served by always being tied to a "Bildungsroman" structure: one where the player is slowly maturing and gaining confidence and power, overcoming obstacles, etc. This is the stereotypical model which has devolved from D&D: start out as weak as a fly, and gradually "build up". This "hero model" is quite limiting and leads to a sort of vocational/psychological tunnel vision. It has the unfortunate effect of leading to a "grab everything valuable in sight" mentality -- players become more focused on advancing ranks/circles than in BEING-THEIR-CHARACTER. This is why I have always militated against the "experience points system" -- it breaks the suspension of disbelief necessary to truly get-into-character. This is merely my opinion, however. Persuasive counter - arguements can (and should) be made. I much prefer the "drama" (read: political scheming and power politics) of the Renaissance Italian "Houses" (Medici) and the character-driven ethos of Raymond Chandler: everyone is already-who-they-are-"supposed"-to-be, what follows is the consequences of that fact being played out. Macbeth, anyone? This goes back to Shakespear's line "Character is fate.". The lack of this "view" in RPG systems has always been really problematic. The world of Tekumel has always been an exception to this (at least potentially). My question is this: why RPG for years (in realtime) before you are allowed to acquire "Temple Spells"or a great position in society? Why not just create the starting parameters of the Tekumel session in such a way that the players already "have" everything they need to get involved in the serious (read: non-dungeon crawling) roleplaying on Tekumel. Forget those rules about "having to be tenth circle" before you can learn temple spells -- just have the GM assign the appropriate spells to the players! If this means creating starting players who are Mriyen in the Temple of Belkhanu, or Molkar in the Legion of the Givers of Sorrow, -- so be it! Players as personal friends of Prince Rereshqala helping the prince to overcome the political chaos of the post-Hirkane Tlakotani period -- sounds great! Swords and Glory (volumes1 & 2) were perhaps the BEST example of a rpg mechanics system that allowed for this type of playing style: you could generate players of any "level" -- and have a huge amount of ethnological, historical, and political material on which to draw. My suggestion thus boils down to this: Create a compelling, dramatic milieu in the "heart" of Tsolyanu (Bey Su, Tumissa, Urmish, Jakalla), establish a strong narrative framework for the entire player group, then create detailed player characters and insert them into an already unfolding action/story. Have the stakes be VERY VERY high. Hook players up with established NPCs and characters out of the source material generated by Professor Barker -- and go! This dramatic-literary technique (in medea res) is as old as the hills (and twice as dusty) - but it really works. Any responses or counter-arguments? [Moderator's note: Well we've now swung in both directions. :) Nice job ] [ of taking the other road, Alex. ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //46 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on Alex's message about ] [ starting characters. ] More on starting characters: I hasten to agree that the "barbarians on a boat" idea is no more than a rather slipshod game device for the first EPT. It made no more sense than having a Hottentot refugee float into New York harbour on a raft! It worked because it was fast, and it gave players time to acculturate. We have all pointed out its many drawbacks. Nuff sed. The "country bumpkin" (or Tsolyani travellers washed ashore -- etc.) gambits have similar problems. Players require more background than they can be given in a few minutes. Unlike other game worlds, Tekumel is NOT a familiar place... The method used in Book One of "Adventures on Tekumel" comes closer to Alex' idea: young nobles, with backgrounds, missions, and skills all ready to go. This takes a little time (particularly if one wants to go through the solitaire adventure books to gain further familiarity), but it does provide reasonably high level, acculturated people. I wonder how many referees would be willing to try Alex' idea of starting people off with really high level posts, however. One of the frequent reasons I am given for people NOT playing Tekumel is that "It's too alien, too difficult to start -- only Professor Barker himself can run it!" While this is patently not true (witness all of you good folk out there on the BlueRoom line!), it may well be true for some gamers. People don't know what to do, where to go, how to start, how to react. A thousand word synopsis of their characters may be seen as daunting, difficult, and perhaps "not fun" for a group that wants to enjoy a gaming evening and not study anthropology! Alex is lucky to have players who are somewhat more interested and accepting than many I've met! Players may find it VERY daunting to start in the midst of "high level" intrigues, tasks, and military adventures without working up to these more gradually. Being handed a sheaf of Imperial documents and told to "deal with the problem" sounds like a good way to scare more timid players away. Or: "The enemy are just over that ridge, Sir. What are your commands for the Legion?" Or: "Great Ksarul, man! Your wife's pregnant! I hear it was the High Priest of Thumis...!" Or: "The Governor's ordered you arrested for treason so he can inherit your estate -- which is being overrun by Pe Choi any way..." Alex's point about "game" stastistics reminds me of a referee I played with long ago, who never let players roll dice at all. He asked what each player wanted to do, then rolled dice behind his "shield" and reported what happened -- including combat. "Well, you struck, missed, and are now quite dead..." Most players want more control than this. But Alex is right about some of this: nothing frustrates me more than players who want "rules" so they can control the situation to their benefit -- unrealistically. The player who looks at a hostile stranger and asks, "What level is he?" How does one know how strong or magically potent, etc. a person met on the street really is in this world? When somebody says, "Your money or your life!" do you have any way to assess his fighting level? Yet I continually hear pleas for more "rules" so that players can manipulate them to achieve their goals and stay alive. I take a middle ground here between the "rules lawyers" and Alex: rules, yes; manipulate them too much, no. Some players develop their non-player character followers into veritable chesspieces who are utterly loyal, tremendously skilled, and organised like a fine-tuned machine. One fellow brought about 70 dossiers on his non-player followers, each more amazingly talented (and loyal1) than the last. He had these minions "trained" to fight like the Rockettes: this round the crossbowmen advance and fire, next round they back away through the ranks, and the sorcerers fire spells, then the spearmen advance, then the player characters themselves move up and strike (to kill foemen and gain maximum experience points), etc. etc. I stopped him from doing this by making him roll dexterity throws every time his puppets had to back through their own ranks, without being able to see clearly, in torchlit darkness. Amazing how many became tangled up and fell all over themselves... All I ask is a modicum of reality. "Real" reality is unachievable, perhaps, but to me the story's the thing and not the "game." I thus agree to some extent with Alex' method, but I think it would be hard to find many who would take on the complex task of becoming a Tsolyani high priest or nobleman from the very beginning -- not without a LOT of background material. Even when such material is abundant (as in Alex' campaigns), it may be difficult to persuade players to use it wisely. When one already has an ongoing campaign, on the other hand, a new player can be introduced in this way -- sink or swim -- but the other players are there to guide him and help him out of scrapes. We do this all the time, but my current players mostly agree that to start a whole new GROUP out as advanced characters might be too tough for some to swallow. For some time I did run two groups: one that insisted on rules (and manipulated them fiendishly to get the most out of the situation -- and me), and a second party that is more interested in the story line and allows me to set the stage and run the scenario with only occasional dice rolls. The first group is no longer around, while the second plays merrily on. Frankly, I am not much of a "competitive" gamer: I don't set out to "beat" my players or "win." I don't consciously try to "kill" player characters, as certain ancient and mighty names in the industry told me they were wont to do. Players who try to beat ME can expect some resentment, of course, and if they escalate, then I must perforce escalate back -- and there is no escalator as high and powerful as a miffed referee!. It's the simulation of Tekumel that delights me, not how many "monsters" there are or how many "hit points" they have. We don't really care about experience points any more, either, to agree with Alex. Nobody ever asks. It has always struck me that it is hard to get even the most experienced players to react as Tsolyani really would. Often, it's just how "Bill" reacts to beat "Jack" -- or how "Bill" reacts to get himself loot that will enhance his position in the player party. Sometimes it's just how "Bill" must react in order to gain prestige and power on Tekumel that he cannot manage in this world. An old friend of mine has said it nicely: "I am a scuzz-butt in this world; I don't want to be a scuzz-butt in somebody else's." I tend not to enjoy "Diplomacy" because it is not so much how Turkey would react to stop Germany, but rather how Bill must ally himself with his buddies to beat Jack and Tom. Reality is not a major desideratum in that game. I guess. I am dubious about fighting military campaigns on Tekumel with wargame rules. This is fine for isolated games or for "just suppose" games, but these cannot be taken as "authentic" Tekumel history without the likelihood of serious damage to Tekumel's "real" history. A gang of talented players can often beat a single, helpless referee (me -- the worst dice roller in the world!), and next thing you know the Mu'ugalavyani lose when they actually win, and the Tsolyani are sacking Ssa'atis! The players take a god-like "wargamers' viewpoint" of a battle, see everything, know everything, and cleverly use the rules to "play chess." I don't mind this, as long as it is not taken as "real Tekumelani history." I recall one wargame in which three very skilled gamers took a contingent of low-class Mu'ugalavyani troops and beat the kilts off the First Legion of Ever-Present Glory (me) by simply dancing all around and "playing rules" instead of simulating a real conflict. I think they lost 3 casualties, while I lost over 400 men! A wargamer (read: chess-player) I am admittedly not! In my view, the best way to introduce players to Tekumel is the use of nonplayer characters who are treated as real people and not just dice-rolls. A group of Tsolyani officers, priests, etc. may discuss something back and forth (with me taking all the parts), so that the players can pick up the clues they are supposed to be able to see/hear for themselves. Often these non-player characters become more real than the players around the table themselves. The Tsolyani wives of two player characters at a banquet can provide more information (gossip) than a whole stack of written background documents! I also make sure that the players do NOT treat their non-player comrades as just dice rolls or targets. I recall when I first started playing that some players even refused to give their non-player comrades a share of the loot! "Fight all night, get wounded or killed, get all hot and sweaty in smelly battle armour -- and then these fancy-pants 'player characters' don't even split up the goodies with us?" When this was tried in my campaigns, the non-player characters demanded and fought for shares of loot -- and when the players still wanted to keep it all, the non-players hid what they found and then refused to work for player parties at all! The players kept wondering why no bodyguards, etc. could be found to join their little excursions! I don't think these are "counter-arguments" against the excellent points that Alex raises. The only problem I see with his method is that of complexity: overwhelming the players with unfamiliar material, and throwing them into high level intrigues before they can understand what is going on and react with all the "savvy" that a real Tsolyani would have. My advice? Get the players' input as to what sort of game they would enjoy. Try whatever method works. Experiment. [Moderator's Note: There is a ton of good advice in both Alex's and the ] [ Professor's messages. I will inject one point here, and ] [ that is, I think Alex is dealing with known player char- ] [ acters, and because he knows them, he can judge their ] [ abilities a bit better. Some of the people writing to ] [ this thread are running campaigns, too, but they are also ] [ running games for first timers at conventions, where the ] [ whole party may have never before heard of Tekumel, or at ] [ least know absolutely nothing of the background. In that ] [ case, maybe a regular player or two could be used to act ] [ as the patrons, and actually participate. I have used ] [ this method before and it has worked very well. ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //47 Hi. This is another announcements message. Lots has been going on recently. There are now 46 members of the list, with 4 more in the wings. It has been pointed out to me that there is a version of FM Pro for Windows. The Mac data file on the ftp site can be unbinhexed on a PC. If you need the program to de-binhex, let me know. I may put it on the site itself, for ease of downloading. 1. The ftp site is running, and is currently available from hours of 5:00 PM to 7:00 AM on weekdays, and all weekend. It is also available some weekdays (when I am off or leave early), but that is on an irregular basis. 2. Some people have offered to type in articles, and we currently are expecting the following articles to show up by the end of the month, hopefully: The Temple of Ksarul, The Splendor of Shenyu, and I am just getting a photocopy of the Temple of Sarku to someone for trans- cription. We could use more, if you can help out. 3. I have created a contrib group on the ftp site, for user contributed items on Tekumel. This may grow to encompass any submitted documents, such as histories, expanded details, stories, rules additions, and other creative works by Tekumel fans. These items will not be part of "Real" Tekumel, unless the Professor gives his "Seal of Approval" to the item. Once an official "Real" Tekumel item is sanctioned, it will be moved to another directory of similar items. All items in the contrib directory will have a notice at the beginning of the file that the material is user contributed, and may not be a part of "Real" Tekumel, but is nonetheless available to be integrated into your campaign, if you so wish. The Professor has graciously agreed to look over some material, but his time is limited, so if stuff really piles up or is so detailed that he has to pull out reams of notes, it may take quite some time to grant the item approval. 4. Some members have wished for a membership list. I would be happy to keep such a list. If you would like to be on the list, please send me a message with the subject, Membership List, and include your email address, name, and city/state/province/country. I'll compile them together and put them on the ftp site. At first I was thinking that this would be enough, but if you want a full address, with Phone number, we can do that, instead. Let me know your preference. 5. It is gratifying that many of you have sent me many kind words and thoughts. The Blue Room is successful because of you guys, I just help route the traffic. In the past 3 days, I added 10 people to the list. As noted above, we are closing in on 50 members from the US, Canada, England, Australia, and New Zealand. Well, that's it for now. Thanks everyone! ----- Chris blueroom@prin.edu //48 [Moderator's Note: Still more on starting characters, this from David ] [ Bailey. ] Well, I just could not let this one go. After all, it strikes at the very heart of what it means to Play_A_Role. Not only that, but it follows a line of thought that has been bothering me a lot lately, namely: where do new RPGers come from (no biology lessons needed, please). OK, so here is my tuppenny worth. I tend to stay away from the 'thicky barbarian' approach, purely because of the limited scope for advancement and interaction with the rest of Tsolyanu citizens. After all, who wants to be shunned more than once a day? I certainly feel there are advantages in the Sourcebook's approach of using low level local characters, as this allows the GM to provide instant briefings from established sources, and to give the role-players a motivation beyond the 'kill-cash-godhood' area. Plenty of people have commented in this group, so I shalln't add anything more There is an area which has not been explored here. We have recently run a short campaign based on low level Livyanu characters, selected at birth as agents of the Vruneb (i.e. not yet tatooed) and trained in secret camps away from any large Livyanu city. This allows the GM to provide all the briefing and training needed, whilst restricting the scope to a manageable area. Off course they are called to go on active service a little earlier than planned, hence they have a reason to expect some gaps in their knowledge. They are given introductions to clans in a small city, in this case Pala Jakalla, and are given _roles_to_play_. Presto! Instant acting in the dramatic/literary/intrigue/social style that we know and love. (By the way, do all the subscribers think that you look more intelligent if you concatenate long words with '/'? Perhaps it saves bandwidth. It just seems to be the norm in this group to drop conjunctions....) Not only does the mechanism give them a motive, it makes them cautious, and it allows them to try out behaviour in the new society. The scenario worked well; only one of them got into any serious trouble, and they are all now established local characters. (Albeit ones with a deep dark secret, one that will lead to later adventures). A modification of this is to take a small group, say half a dozen soldiers, from a remote part of the empire and second them to the other side of Tsolyanu. In this case the local officer, either an experienced player or a non-player character, to whom they are assigned can act as mentor. It also helps greatly in preventing the campaign disintegrating into internicene plots too early in the players careers. (Yes, I know that some people like that style, and it is 'typical' Tekumel, but neophyte gamers can be seriously put off by it.) The 'squad forward' approach can be very successful, and I wonder if it is due to very restricted view of life that the military have? Characters only need to learn to act as soldiers, with very limited exploration when on leave. They are spared some of the social complexity, and can fall beck on their comrades when it gets tough. There is no need for it to be combat oriented; provided the GM is ready to explain the consequences of violence in public places they can be lead gently into all the areas that they need to pick up ahead of later, more complex campaigns. When it is over, the role player has a character to call on, and is now hooked by the world of Tekumel. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //49 [Moderator's Note: David Cheng asks the following of the professor. ] Professor Barker, we're all grateful for your contributions to the mailing list here. We eagerly anticipate future product releases, and sometimes you drop hints as to what they might be. I was wondering if you could share with us your personal "priority list"? What things are _you_ working on these days, if anything? And, just as importantly, in what order do you think they'll appear? The _Lords of Tsamra_ novel is mentioned sometimes; is this a current active project for you? Or, are other items more interesting to you right now? Thanks. [And the Professor's Reply ] Dear David, I don't really have a fixed list of "priorities." Now that the roleplaying module is out, and the other modules (e.g. the bestiary) are in print, I am turning my attention to more cultural/historical/linguistic things. As you may know, I just finished a 64-page booklet on the Sunuz language (used by the devotees of the Pariah Deities), together with its spells and rather horrid philosophy. I have a Livyani grammar and a Yan Koryani grammar, a couple of shortish articles on other topics, and a LOT of unfinished projects (like putting all of my boxes and boxes of character cards onto Filemaker Pro -- some are on, but others remain to be done). I haven't worked on the novel for a long time, largely because I was working on the rules module -- and also because, frnakly, I was not very happy with the novel itself. My players who read it really "flamed" me up one side and down the other because it was not as well written as the previous two, and nobody liked the current hero. I am still planning to rewrite it, and maybe now that the rules are done (for now!), I'll get back to it. Or maye I'll go write a treatise on the Engsvanyali... I wish I could do more and do it faster, but I am no longer young or as spry as I used to be! Being retired helps, but getting the energy to start a new project seems to be harder and harder these days. But don't count me out quite yet! I still have a book or two in me. Best regards. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //50 [Moderator's Note: This treatise comes from David Bailey, and grew from ] [ the campaign he is a part of. It is not "Real" Tekumel ] [ but I did forward it to him for his comments, which are ] [ interspersed throughout, and set off by a leading >. ] [> = Professor Barker's comments ] [ = Original message. ] >This is delightful. It IS a little too "scientific" in its phraseology for the >Tinaliya to have written. (Note spelling: "Tinaliya" with one "l." I have fixed >this throughout.) >My group long ago learned NOT to use Ahoggya as player characters. Who wants to >smell bad, defecate on fine carpets, mate with 7 other smelly, hairy creatures, >and talk like a retarded gorilla? (Reminds me of some friends I once had -- but >that's another story...) This is the text of a little hand out that was given to a player who insisted on being an Ahoggya. Partly because they made it clear that intended to try to make some sort of super-character out of their choice. (Perhaps they had read the combat and physical statistics, but little of the social or practical matters). >I have always warned players that this is NOT a fun thing to be, in spite of >the Ahoggya;s great strength. On Tekumel the goal is to achieve SOCIAL status >and power -- not to be Mr. Musclebound Superhero! So why are Ahoggya smelly, stupid, violent and wierd [sp. "weird" is correct.] The following is a summary of the translation of the research notes of the Tinaliya family-hive of Tkit tlin tisisiti. It dates from several hundred generations before the current game time. >The name of the Tinaliya "hive" (= underground city?) is incorrect. It >should be Tkit Tlinet Ses Ti, which one Tinaliya told me meant "Why do >you care what we call it?" How did this author get the nice accents, >umlauts, etc.? Why can't we do this on our (American?) machines? It is believed that they captured a family of Ahoggya by the simple expedient of drugging a huge pile of fruit and fish heads which they left on a raft moored near an Ahoggya village. How they carried the captives back into the nest, and what they used to restrain them is unknown. The Tinaliya carried out their experiments over a period of three years, utilising all of the charges in a rare eye of healing that had been ‘tuned >What an interesting use of umlauts and accents! How did he do it? [Moderator's Note: My text file doesn't show the accents. Sorry. I have ] [ had to remove the characters. ] to Ahoggya. The results were encrypted in the form of gel matrix that could only be understood by specially bred messenger clones and then passed on to other hives. With the loss of this particular caste of hive member the knowledge was lost. The knowledge matrix has been resting in the archives for millennia, and will, by now, have mainly decayed beyond recovery. Fortunately some of it has been recovered and passed to a human scholar. The huge text of the research covers all aspects of Ahoggya behaviour, physiology, metabolism and anatomy. It was not able to cover the reproductive behaviour of the Ahoggya, although some direct field observations were appended. (One suspects that it is easier, and safer to observe Ahoggya from under a densely foliated bush if one is about a metre tall). >..Or else from a GREAT distance ...! One of the fundamental points addressed was the reason for the slow but steady collapse of Ahoggya civilisation in the period since the times of darkness. From a space faring species to a barely sentient swamp dwelling race of mercenaries. There was considerable dispute as to whether the collapse was genuine, or the Ahoggya were trying to perpetrate some form of deception on the other races. The Tinaliya concluded that the observed facts were congruent with a loss of lower brain function. Viral, bacterial and fungal disease were ruled out at an early stage, so, in the slow, methodical manner of the Tinaliya, they began a series of delicate vivisections and biochemical experiments... >Here things get a little too "modern-scientific" for anybody on Tekumel. >Even the Tinaliya don't know that much about biochemistry. So much was >lost during the Latter Times...! It is widely known that the Ahoggya have four large areas of nerve tissue that are loosely referred to as ‘brains >Cute! Each of these is capable of acting in an independent manner, and at any one time, the degree of dominance of any one brain area will vary according to a complex temporal pattern as well as in response to external stimuli. To put it another way, the ‘brains’ take it in turn to rest, control mobility, communicate, and monitor basal functions such as breathing, circulation and digestion. >I'm not sure this is correct. But then I am not a extra-terrestrial >physiologist either! As well as the general abilities each ‘brain’ has a major function. One will be specialise in each of these functions, and will usually be given control of a situation that requires its full attention if the current ‘brain’ thinks that the task requires specialist help. A key example of this is the Ahoggya response to surprise combat stimuli whilst it is occupied with another task: the creature will initially react in a disorganised fashion, but quickly becomes a ferocious and talented fighter. >Possible? Never noticed. The creatures seem rather disorganised most of >the time anyhow. The four areas each have higher functional areas, roughly equivalent to the human cerebral cortex, as well as four lower functional areas. One of these areas is a highly specialised segment that carries knotted fibrous connections to each of the other four ‘brains’. It is this segment that, if compared to the records of the ur-Ahoggya appeared to have atrophied in all of the experimental subjects. >THe Ahoggya were, of course, a major spacefaring race. They probably got >their technology from the Pe Choi, however, and they never developed it >much beyond the simplest Three Light Drive mechanism. They may also have >had help from other races -- no one really knows. As a consequence of this, there is imperfect co-ordination of the brain areas. To explore this further the Tinaliya used four sorcerers one to read each of the brain areas of the last surviving subject (an immature specimen). What they found is not translatable (unless you can read with four pairs of eyes simultaneously), but it was felt that the specimen exhibited symptoms not unlike schizophrenia in humans. This co-related with the behavioural observations of random violence, inability to communicate, and inability to concentrate on problems. The primary conclusion of a long series of experiments, the details of which are not repeated here as they make some of Ebon Bindings seem palatable, was that there was some form of long term, or chronic, dietary deficiency. This was tracked down to one a small number of very rare (on Tekumel) elements, the most likely being Caesium. >I am not sure even the Tinaliya can identify trace elements, and Caesium >is so rare on Tekumel that I wonder how the Tinaliya even knew of it. There appeared to be a neurological enzymic co-factor linked to this element which was required for the efficient function of the junctions between the local ‘brains’ and the connecting fibres. Other elements were also noted as being required by Ahoggya that are almost completely missing on Tekumel, especially Bismuth and Tungsten. Sadly they lead to poor dietary efficiency and imperfect nitrogen metabolism, further impairing nerve function. (The excess venting of partially nitrogenated compounds leading to a strong smell of decay around adult Ahoggya). >Good reasoning -- but too complex even for the Tinaliya? This race has >some scientific knowledge, of course, but -- well -- hmm... Searches for replacement sources for the missing elements came up with a few species of brackish water succulent plants (which the Ahoggya are known to collect in the swamps) and the local ores of Copper and Manganese. It was also noted, from a search on the literature of previous experiments, that Shen eggs and certain deep sea creatures concentrated Caesium in the shells. No practical use was found for this data. >Interesting. I never knew this. A spin off of the lack of co-ordination of the brain areas was that they tended to ‘interfere’ with each other when attempting magical actions. This made it very hard to read their minds or use delicate magical forces in their vicinity. Again this tallied with behavioural observation. Sadly, for Ahoggya, the deficiency is not reversible in adult life. If the creature does not receive adequate amounts during gestation and throughout infant life, the damage is permanent. There is no mechanism in their metabolism to store the element, and any taken is excreted rapidly. There may be a temporary mental ‘hig >(What?) if the creature is able to ingest large quantities, but this will quickly fade. It was deduced that the element was very common on their home world. The Tinaliya commented that it was unfortunate that the Ahoggya had failed to adapt to the new circumstances, and set up a long term project ot observe their decline. This experiment continued for five hundred years, until the results were unequivocal, then it was discontinued. #### We still had a great deal of fun with the Ahoggya, after all it was young and not totally crazy. They have their uses (moving rocks, scaring children, eating people's coins and bashing down doors) but are clearly not suited to politics. Even better, this one had a _reason_ to plague any Shen he met; an inexplicable desire to kill them and eat their bones... David Bailey >The piece is well-written and fun. It may not be Tekumelani "truth" -- I >myself know so little about biochemistry that it could well be 100% correct >or 100% wrong -- but it will doubtless amuse other members of the Blue Room. >Put it out as a "possible" piece of Tekumelani knowledge, if you wish. >As a side-note, I often have problems with western European and American >players who are (excusably) "too scientific." Somebody always wants to >invent gunpowder, make maps, develop bicycles for the legions to ride >into battle on, discover the radio and TV, turn Tekumel into a parliamen- >tary democracy, etc, etc. I always have to point out that "cultural blindness" >is a reality: why didn't the peoples of ancient Mesoamerica invent the >wheel (when there are instances of wheeled toys!), or the arch? The ricksha >was invented by an Englishman living in China, I believe. Etc. If one has >fire spells, the Doomkill, etc., why bother inventing gunpowder, which in >its early stages is much less efficient? If someone wants to do this in >their own "alternate Tekumel" campaign, I have no objection -- it's their >prerogative -- but I don't think it is very likely, anthropologically >speaking. I also happen to PREFER "my" Tekumel with less science, rather >than more, which adds to its "exotic" character. "My" Tinaliya thus would >probably never think to vivisect an Ahoggya -- not if they knew what is >good for them! [Moderator's Note: Hmm.. Well I guess I shouldn't say that the very ] [ first character I ever played was an Ahoggya! I ] [ probably didn't do a very good job, but I read what ] [ was available, and didn't do too bad a job. I didn't] [ mess up too many carpets, and only waved my sexual ] [ organs at one Priestess of Dilinalia (or was it 2?). ] [ But the Professor is right, and the fun wore off ] [ after a while, since there wasn't much potential ] [ for social growth. Remember, this was in 1976, when ] [ there was only the TSR publication, and none of our ] [ group even knew that there was a group playing with ] [ the professor up in Minneapolis. ] //51 [Moderator's Note: Tom Robertson asks the following... ] Question: Has anyone got a map of Penom - I have players there at present (they are not happy, too hot, too wet, too many insects especially in their food, too much mould and only Red Hats to relieve the "boredom"!) The map of Setnakh was great and will be used very soon. Tom R Robertson ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //52 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to David Bailey's article ] [ on starting characters. ] >I tend to stay away from the 'thicky barbarian' approach, purely because >of the limited scope for advancement and interaction with the rest of >Tsolyanu citizens. After all, who wants to be shunned more than once a >day? As said before, the "thicky barbarian off the boat in Jakalla" was a game device back in the days when other campaigns began in a tavern with no personal or cultural backgrounds whatsoever. Any "outdoors" adventures were done by using [Moderator's Note: Messages were coming in hot and heavy at the time, his ] [ might have come in prior to my sending the message with] [ that information. ] another game (what was it called? "Outdoors Adventure?") which was a sort of jungle and backpacking game in which the goal was to survive from one waterhole to another. "Castles" were built on this game's map, but there was little more to the society. Anyway... that's all water under the bridge now. >There is an area which has not been explored here. We have recently run >a short campaign based on low level Livyanu characters, selected at birth >as agents of the Vruneb (i.e. not yet tatooed) and trained in secret >camps away from any large Livyanu city. This allows the GM to provide >all the briefing and training needed, whilst restricting the scope to a >manageable area. Good idea, except that Livyanu is a culturally difficult place to "get into." The paranoid presence of the Vru'uneb is hard for western Europeans and Americans to tolerate (no comment about our current governments and societies, please!), and the secretive nature of the Shadow Gods' great temples make it hard for players to relate to each other or to their society. It CAN be done, of course, and it is fun to try a Livyani group. -- Of course, after the great Plague that just about wiped out Livyanu in 2356-7 and led to the Mu'ugalavyani invasion (and a corresponding Shen incursion in the south), there may not be enough left of classical Livyani society to worry about... >They are given introductions to clans in a small city, in this case Pala >Jakalla, and are given _roles_to_play_. Presto! Instant acting in the >dramatic/literary/intrigue/social style that we know and love. (By the >way, do all the subscribers think that you look more intelligent if you >concatenate long words with '/'? Perhaps it saves bandwidth. It just >seems to be the norm in this group to drop conjunctions....) Hmm. Sometimes a string of single words connected with conjunctions just fails to give the "inclusive" significance wanted, at least to me. Above, where I wrote "jungle and backpacking game," it might have been useful to put in something like "jungle/survival/backpacking" or something similar to give a stronger idea of what the game was about. However, no quibbles from me -- an old college professor who has had to learn that "like" and "go" mean "say": e.g. "So I'm like, 'Great, let's book!" or "So I go, "What's it to you?" Language changes, and whenever I utter mild cries of consternation, one of my players will invariably ask, "Yes, and who was Pharoah in your day?" >Not only does the mechanism give them a motive, it makes them cautious, >and it allows them to try out behaviour in the new society. The >scenario worked well; only one of them got into any serious trouble, and >they are all now established local characters. (Albeit ones with a deep >dark secret, one that will lead to later adventures). Sounds exactly like what role-playing needs. Whatever works! >A modification of this is to take a small group, say half a dozen >soldiers, from a remote part of the empire and second them to the other >side of Tsolyanu. In this case the local officer, either an experienced >player or a non-player character, to whom they are assigned can act as >mentor. It also helps greatly in preventing the campaign disintegrating >into internecine plots too early in the players careers. (Yes, I know >that some people like that style, and it is 'typical' Tekumel, but >neophyte gamers can be seriously put off by it.) We often play "hostile" factions on the same mission, but my players and I are VERY careful not to let this escalate into violence. We always find some excuse to keep things civil. Why? Because the adventure itself is more fun -- we think -- than croaking each other... >The 'squad forward' approach can be very successful, and I wonder if it >is due to very restricted view of life that the military have? >Characters only need to learn to act as soldiers, with very limited >exploration when on leave. They are spared some of the social >complexity, and can fall beck on their comrades when it gets tough. >There is no need for it to be combat oriented; provided the GM is ready >to explain the consequences of violence in public places they can be lead >gently into all the areas that they need to pick up ahead of later, more >complex campaigns. When it is over, the role player has a character to >call on, and is now hooked by the world of Tekumel. Sounds good. I did a similar sort of scenario in "Flamesong." The difficulty is only that these people need further social and political skills in order to get the most out of Tekumel. Hanging out in Fort Zinderneuf on the Milumanayani frontier gets you very little besides hot, grumpy, and killed. We've also introduced characters in one of the remote monasteries that dot the northern and eastern mountain frontiers of Tsolyanu. We have tried Salarvyani warriors serving one of the city-states (Koyluga), and also a party of Yan Koryani infilitrators, but, oddly enough, we've never done Mu'ugalavyani. A secret cell of Pariah God worshippers might be entertaining, too. Because of their alienness, no one has ever volunteered to run a group of Hluss or Ssu characters -- they'd be so limited that playing them for more than an evening or two would be difficult. Grab whatever works for you group and run with it -- old Tsolyani washerwomen, palace chamberlains out for a picnic, Tinaliya merchants sailing on a Shen ship to explore the lands of the Naqsai... ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //53 [Moderator's Note: Alex responds to Tom's request for a map of Penom. ] >Question: Has anyone got a map of Penom - I have players there at present >(they are not happy, too hot, too wet, too many insects especially in their >food, too much mould and only Red Hats to relieve the "boredom"!) >The map of Setnakh was great and will be used very soon. Yes, I have one. I am putting the finishing touches on it this weekend. I could post it to the ftp site(?) if you like. There really are a number of charming spots to visit in Penom -- I recommend the Dome of the Sweeping Sea, Garden of Amber Twilight, and the Villa of Copper Stairs (just outside of the city along the coastline). Do try to avoid the harbor area, though. Alexander Stojanovic ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //54 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Tom's request. ] Dear Tom, I have only a pencil-sketch map of Penom. I'll see about doing it up like Setnakh. This may take some time because I have other projects cooking. Good luck. Kill many insects. Don't drink the water. Look down into the latrine before you squat... ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //55 [Moderator's Note: New listmember Chuck Monson adds to the starting char- ] [ acter discussion. ] I have played since this game was in its pre-publishing phase...although i do not mean to say that i shot 22's at the Prof as a lad in Idaho... and you may understand from that the earnestness with which the Professor manages his games... Starting characters in the classic mode of this adventure game, the barbarian stranger, allows for the ignorance of players to the world which the gamemaster will reveal to them...each alley may be a lesson to be cautiously reviewed, rapidly avoided, or desparately challenged...depending upon your psychological make-up... it might do well for any storyteller to explore the perceptions of the 'barbarian'....the barbarian may indeed come from a advanced culture, be highly skilled in some field, and still be a barbarian by local standards...eggs is eggs in London, but down the river you must order eggis if you want someone to understand you...languange is one of the DISCRIMINATING features of the barbarian...one doesn't have to go far in the world to find language barriers giving stereotypes of ignorance...or color of eyes in Tekumel...or the cut of your clothing, the choice or lack of perfumes, the symbols of your clan, family and religion worn openly in Tsolyanu... take this as a clue to a fun game...no one knows everything all the time...except the Professor...but don't let your players hear you even think that... REVELATION by sensory information is important, verbal cues not withstanding...use those adjectives liberally....read a lot of cultural detail for one gem of an idea...meld the idea with what your players DISCOVER in Tekumel...lace intrigue with every draft of chumetl...a spicy brew for all to enjoy... and why treat OR ALLOW the players to act to intelligently, read the "Man of Gold" by Barker...even a native Tsolyani, trained and with special skills, can not always apply or control where events take him...life is like that... cnmonson ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //56 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Chuck Monson's message about ] [ starting characters. ] I remnember Chuck very well. Good to hear from him again! >[Moderator's Note: New listmember Chuck Monson adds to the starting char- ] >[ acter discussion. ] >I have played since this game was in its pre-publishing phase...although i do >not mean to say that i shot 22's at the Prof as a lad in Idaho... >and you may understand from that the earnestness with which the Professor >manages his games... Good thing you didn't shoot 22's at me! Tekumel might never have got written! >Starting characters in the classic mode of this adventure game, the barbarian >stranger, allows for the ignorance of players to the world which the >gamemaster will reveal to them...each alley may be a lesson to be cautiously >reviewed, rapidly avoided, or desparately challenged...depending upon your >psychological make-up... So here's someone DEFENDING the barbarian-off-the-boat approach. Chuck's arguments are interesting, but some who want to get into the complexities of the world faster may not want to go through all of the necessary cultural learning- process. >it might do well for any storyteller to explore the perceptions of the >'barbarian'....the barbarian may indeed come from a advanced culture, be >highly skilled in some field, and still be a barbarian by local >standards...eggs is eggs in London, but down the river you must order eggis >if you want someone to understand you...languange is one of the >DISCRIMINATING features of the barbarian...one doesn't have to go far in the >world to find language barriers giving stereotypes of ignorance...or color of >eyes in Tekumel...or the cut of your clothing, the choice or lack of >perfumes, the symbols of your clan, family and religion worn openly in >Tsolyanu... All true. Tekumel probably focusses more on language(s) than any other roleplaying game. Just pronouncing Tsolyani names is hard enough! What if you had to learn five or six completely different languages in order to do business -- like merchants in Bombay, who must be able to function easily in Hindi, English, Marathi, Gujerati, perhaps Kannada, Telugu, Tamil, or even Malayalmm? Little kids in the bazaars there know enough to get along in two or three languages. On Tekumel the language clues to status, clan, provenience, etc. are all quite crucial to social behaviour. >REVELATION by sensory information is important, verbal cues not >withstanding...use those adjectives liberally....read a lot of cultural >detail for one gem of an idea...meld the idea with what your players DISCOVER >in Tekumel...lace intrigue with every draft of chumetl...a spicy brew for all >to enjoy... You're right, Chuck! >and why treat OR ALLOW the players to act to intelligently, read the "Man of >Gold" by Barker...even a native Tsolyani, trained and with special skills, >can not always apply or control where events take him...life is like >that... My players are used to being dragged off by the Hand of Fate. Some players don't enjoy being "controlled," but real life is even worse. At least my "Fate" is usually meant to be enjoyable... ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //57 [Moderator's Note: This message is a bit different from our normal ] [ content, but here it is. I will send the Pro- ] [ fessor's commentary (on the Tekumel bits) mo ] [ mentarily. ] Useless header information follows: I was taking a little walk with my wife the other day. The two of us were discussing whether there is any purpose to role playing, or whether it is a waste of my life. We planned to cover about 13 miles or so on the South Downs Way in England. People have wandered down some of those paths for over a thousand years, so naturally there is a pub or two to be found. It was really hot, about 29C (yes, in England), not a cloud in the sky. Luncheon was taken at a fine old pub, the Shepherd and Dog. It consisted of stilton cheese and a salad. Refreshment was certainly called for, and what was called for was two pints of old hazy cider. This, if you have never imbided it, is a murky yellow liquid smelling of dangerous ketones, esters and other wholesome ingredients. (A Salarvyani would probably use it to varnish his beard) Yum, yum; very refreshing. Time for a little nap, I said. Aha! Yonder is a little flint church circa 1100, with a fine shady and scented rose bush to lay beneath. Let the afternoon dozing begin...zzzzzzzzzz It is, of course, impossible to remember dreams, but bits of it were left, and I wrote these down on the back of the map we were using. End of useless header information. There was a tall thin man in robes of oily purple (oily, as in the purple colours moved like oil on water). He explained to me that Tekumel was a very important place. People have lots of things going on in their minds all the time. There conciousness is made up of a series of patterns of brain activity that all compete for resources, and try desperately not to be wiped out by the inbuilt 'censoring' mechanisms. These ideas and activities can gang together to make 'agents', these are patterns of thought that can do things without needing direct guidance from the rest of the brain (like playing the piano, driving in the dark, spreading butter on bread). On Tekumel magic is harnessed by 'agents' that are placed in the minds of adepts by sorcerous learning. Thus someone casting a spell just 'triggers' the agent pattern for that spell. The thing is, he explained, the spell caster doesn't really know how the effect is achieved, nor what the true effect is. OK, you can see or measure some of the results of magic on Tekumel, but you don't see how it affects the source of the energy. Nor do you see what affect it has on the balance of power between the planes. There are beings who DO see the whole pattern, and they have very good reasons to encourage all the sentient races to carry on pouring magical energy into Tekumel's dimension/plane (oops, used a slash there). Unfortunately I can't remember who these beings were, or what their purpose was. More-over, there was something _really_ important about the languages that were spoken on Tekumel. All human languages might come from a root language, but this is not of any consequence. However, concious thought is associated with certain language patterns, and some languages allow the formation of better 'agents' than others. (As an example, Japanese speakers are, apparently, often better at long division than romance language speakers.) It is true on Tekumel that some languages allow better access to magic than others, through their effect on the brain of the user. What is really important is that the 'gods' on Tekumel have manipulated the minds of the beings who worship them, by encouraging the use of special languages. This has made the majority of races compliant in the greater scheme of things, unaware of the huge forces ranged around them. Or, the gods have colectively discouraged (as in discouraged spelled k-i-l-l-e-d) any race that has come close to a language that would give access to magical ability without the control of a 'god'. This hypothetical language would make the speaker like a god. If his brain could take the strain. It would enable access to enormously powerful magics. It could de-stabilise the whole of the pocket-dimension. It would be neither 'good', nor 'evil'. There may be more than one such language. It would probably be based on some sort of fractal compression of a tone language, enabling fantastically complex ideas to be encoded into a few syllables. Even a rudimentary grasp of this language would render the speaker wholly insane by current standards, and may even kill them. (tsk, no chance of a player character finding it then...) Hmm, what did happen to the Livyani? Why was Ksarul imprisoned, and what is special about the secret Ksarul temple language? What if a human could learn Ssu? Is this why the 'pariah' languages are considered so evil of themselves, even if one is not a worshipper? As a parting message, I was supposed to consider what would happen to a Universe where the true language of the gods was learned by a sentient race, and Tekumel came back 'through the curtain'.... Then he went away. So. Is it true that the languages are the most important thing on Tekumel? Which languages do the 'demons' speak? Is there a definitive 'family tree' of ALL languages, past and present, for all races? Are the tone based languages going to dominate? Can sentient beings compress speach, say using fractal algorithms, or is this something that only a computer can do? Useless footer information: Never mix blue cheese, strong cider and heat exhaustion; unless you are really desperate for the plot of your next campaign. End useless footer info: May the time of change be now! Midori Ito With thanks to: 'The man who mistook his wife for a hat' Oliver Sachs 'The embedding' by Ian Watson 'New Scientist' Magazine The work of Hugo Zempe and Shima Aron who recorded the baka chants of Cameroun, of Burundi, of Senegal and the Pygmy peoples for 'Deep Forest' CD DAN 4719762. (Snippets could be *.wav recorded then sent as UUencoded for academic study only) The temple of Wuru. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //58 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Message 57 from David ] [ Bailey. ] >There was a tall thin man in robes of oily purple (oily, as in the purple >colours moved like oil on water). He explained to me that Tekumel was a >very important place. >People have lots of things going on in their minds all the time. There >conciousness is made up of a series of patterns of brain activity that >all compete for resources, and try desperately not to be wiped out by the >inbuilt 'censoring' mechanisms. These ideas and activities can gang >together to make 'agents', these are patterns of thought that can do >things without needing direct guidance from the rest of the brain (like >playing the piano, driving in the dark, spreading butter on bread). On >Tekumel magic is harnessed by 'agents' that are placed in the minds of >adepts by sorcerous learning. Thus someone casting a spell just >'triggers' the agent pattern for that spell. My own interpretation of Tekumel "magic" is more technological than "religious" or "sorcerous" or "thaumaturgical," or whatever term you wish to use. I see "magic" as pulling energy through the "skin of reality" into Tekumel's Plane, where it is "moulded" ("shaped," transformed" -- ?) into substance or other kinds of energy by mental "gestalts" or "mind-sets" rather like computer programmes. One learns these as a student in the temples, practices until they become absolutely rote, then pulls them up with key words, gestures, and mental conceptualisations. More complex spells require more actions, vocalisations, and the like, including "props" like incense, candles, and diagammes (probably other items would do, but these are traditional in the temples). >The thing is, he explained, the spell caster doesn't really know how the >effect is achieved, nor what the true effect is. OK, you can see or >measure some of the results of magic on Tekumel, but you don't see how it >affects the source of the energy. Nor do you see what affect it has on >the balance of power between the planes. He's right. We always see the Planes Beyond as separate "places," occupied by energy and matter in the same way our Plane is. But the "power" for "magic" seems to come from the "In-Between Spaces," where there is nothing but inchoate energy. Spells are minor enough that they do not seem to affect the power from Beyond, either in quantity or quality. The "balance" might thus take a LOT of spell-use to disturb. >There are beings who DO see the whole pattern, and they have very good >reasons to encourage all the sentient races to carry on pouring magical >energy into Tekumel's dimension/plane (oops, used a slash there). >Unfortunately I can't remember who these beings were, or what their >purpose was. The Pariah Deities? They'd like to create "holes" in Tekumel's "Skin of Reality" where they can enter. >More-over, there was something _really_ important about the languages >that were spoken on Tekumel. All human languages might come from a root >language, but this is not of any consequence. However, concious thought >is associated with certain language patterns, and some languages allow >the formation of better 'agents' than others. (As an example, Japanese >speakers are, apparently, often better at long division than romance >language speakers.) It is true on Tekumel that some languages allow >better access to magic than others, through their effect on the brain of >the user. I'm not sure the Japanese example is for real. There are many cultural factors involved. Remember, we used to say that Spanish is the language of passion, French the language of romance, German the language of science, etc. etc. These are all based on cultural "perceptions," rather than any underlying linguistic differences. There ARE basic perceptual differences, of course, as Benjamin Lee Whorf proposed. But if true, then we can only express our perceptions in categories already conditioned by our languages -- and hence we can never express ideas that are not already "expressible" in our linguistic matrices! I once did a grammar, dictionary, and texts of the Klamath language of southwestern Oregon; it has "singular" and "plural" categories for people but not for objects or animals. Instead, it has a "distributive" mechanism: a rock or pile of rocks in the same place is _singular_, but rocks spread about here and there (physically or temporally, in the speaker's perception) are seen as "distributive." Klamath also has pre-verbs that one must use to speak of different shape-categories: e.g. "to give a long object" (a stick) is different from "to give a round object" (a ball or rock), from "to give a living object" (a baby), from "to give a flat oject" (piece of paper), etc. etc. There are about 100 of these shape-morphemes, and they combine with locational elements: e.g. "to put a flat object on top," "put a flat object into water," "put a flat object into fire," "put a flat object underneath," etc. It would e hard to imagine Aristotle's logic in Klamath! >What is really important is that the 'gods' on Tekumel have manipulated >the minds of the beings who worship them, by encouraging the use of >special languages. This has made the majority of races compliant in the >greater scheme of things, unaware of the huge forces ranged around them. >Or, the gods have colectively discouraged (as in discouraged spelled >k-i-l-l-e-d) any race that has come close to a language that would give >access to magical ability without the control of a 'god'. Curious idea. I'll have to ask some of my Tsolyani consultants and see what they think. This may be true of the languages of the Pariah Deities, but I doubt whether Tsolyani or the rest of humanity's many tongues would be god-imposed. >This hypothetical language would make the speaker like a god. If his >brain could take the strain. It would enable access to enormously >powerful magics. It could de-stabilise the whole of the >pocket-dimension. It would be neither 'good', nor 'evil'. There is no "good" or "evil" in Tekumel's conceptualisations anyway. >There may be >more than one such language. It would probably be based on some sort of >fractal compression of a tone language, enabling fantastically complex >ideas to be encoded into a few syllables. Even a rudimentary grasp of >this language would render the speaker wholly insane by current >standards, and may even kill them. (tsk, no chance of a player character >finding it then...) I don't see tone languages as necessarily able to encode more complex ideas in shorter space than non-tone languages. Chinese does come to mind, but can a Chinese really express complex ideas faster, or in greater number, or more delicately than an English speaker? The most complex tone languages (e.g. Trique, in Mexico, with four separate pitch levels, and rises and falls from any of these to any of the others), are not really intellectually or religiously -- or any other way -- more complex than non-tone languages such as English, French, or German. >Hmm, what did happen to the Livyani? Llyani, or Livyani? The downfall of the former seems to have been local societal change, plus the advent of the Dragon Lords. The latter almost bought it last year because of the spread of the great Plague. >Why was Ksarul imprisoned, and what >is special about the secret Ksarul temple language? Mythology. Your interpretation is as good as mine. As for the Secret Tongue, it may be just a means of keeping doctrines and dogma out of the hands of other temple hierarchies. >What if a human could learn Ssu? Neither vocal apparatus nor the mental processes seem to allow this. Not one single case has ever been recorded. [Moderator's Note: We didn't think that humans could speak Pe Choi until ] [ Harsan did in The Man of Gold, either. However, I do ] [ doubt that the Ssu would invest the time and trouble to ] [ raise a found human baby. ] >Is this why the 'pariah' languages are considered so evil of themselves, even >if one is not a worshipper? "Evil" is -- again -- a concept hard to explain on Tekumel, which does not have a "good God" and a "bad god" in human terms. The Pariah Deities are not seen as "evil" but just "inimical," just as a pit-viper is inimical. The viper thinks it's doing the right thing! >As a parting message, I was supposed to consider what would happen to a >Universe where the true language of the gods was learned by a sentient >race, and Tekumel came back 'through the curtain'.... >Then he went away. >So. Is it true that the languages are the most important thing on >Tekumel? I'd say that the languages are indeed important. "Most" may be a bit too much, however. >Which languages do the 'demons' speak? Dunno. Most of these creatures have languages of their own on their own Planes, and many of the greater ones have no problems "speaking" to humans telepathically or through some other unknown mechanism. >Is there a definitive 'family tree' of ALL languages, past and present, >for all races? If you take the idea that all human beings really do spring from one ancient ancestor, then all languages are logically descended from the tongue that urancestor spoke. Who knows? >Are the tone based languages going to dominate? The Chinese would appreciate a "yes"; the Japanese (a non-tone language) might like a "no." I tend to doubt it. There are instances of non-tone languages developing from tonal languages, and vice-versa (e.g. Panjabi, which has a couple of tones that its parent -- Middle Indic -- did not have, and which its close relative, Hindi, doesn't have today). >Can sentient beings compress speach, say using fractal algorithms, or is >this something that only a computer can do? This question is quite beyond my expertise. Anybody else? This is a tough act to follow! [Agreed!] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //59 [Moderator's Note: David Bailey writes the following about his previous ] [ post on magic and languages. ] Thanks for the consideration guys, it is just great to be able develop ideas with a like minded group instead of in isolation. I have managed to get all the old 'Digest' postings and am now after the ftp sites (lock up your computers, a newbie is coming) The language idea has really got under my skin now. I intend to develop this theme along the lines that the secret languages of Duruob, Ai Chi, Sunuz, and the Toungue of the Priest of Ksarul act like a bit of a 'mental virus' and cause ideas and behaviours to take root in the brain of the speaker. (Greg Bear had a good story along these lines, darned if I can remember the title though). This will also allow the Pariah Gods to take control of their followers and use them as channels when the time is ripe... (like leaving an open ip> gateway?). Only #THEY# can know. I used a few of the ideas in a game yesterday. Still some work to do before I'm happy though. The players enjoyed reading the 'digests'. They offer a possible scenario for the 'if the egg of the world was made whole' idea, it goes like this: >The energy of the planes comes from the 'friction' between Tekumel Bubble >and normal universe. If you 'pop' the bubble and survive the surprize >ending is...you are way _back_ in time. That friction comes from running against time. Any one know how far the Ancient Assyrians got with making that rescue spaceship. Tough cookies. Now where is that map of Mohenjo Daro.... David Bailey. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu //60 [Moderator's Note: New listmember Darryl Adams adds more to the Starting ] [ Characters conversation. ] Thank you for putting me onto the Tekumel mailing list. I have been going through the previous mail about starting characters and thought i might add my $A0.05 cents in. As a totally new person to Tekumel (my first module was Dermot Bolton running two characters through a solo adventure), I recently got my hands on the EPT rules as well as the Tekumel source books and was engrossed by the depth of background. INMO, you can be swamped by the detail, especially if you play cold (like i did), as not only the world is different,but the moral, social and political norms _are_ alien. Playing a member of a high clan is also hard, as you have social and political responsibilities which you must honor without becoming a social outcast (or worse). Reading through the EPT rules, the just off the boat is a good concept (and as the Professor said, Rome made a habit of appointing barbarians as generals at al), but here you miss out on what Tekumel offers, rich social and political interaction. (Plus i must add, how would barbarian get to join a decent clan?). One way of getting immersed is to point players into reading Raymond E Fiest "Riftwar" and "Tsuani" books. While not true Tekumel, and possible derivative to Prof Barker, it is more accessible to the public than Prof Barker's books (are thy still in print? Where they ever published by a British publisher?[british books are easier to get than US books]). Still there is a lot of work to be done to make the players aware of the Tekumel way of doing things. [Moderator's Note: I have a set of the Professor's books that I have ] [earmarked for friends that have extreme troubles getting copies. I ] [visited 3 used bookstores here in St. Louis, and found numerous copies.] [I suggest that our other friends in the States do the same. I will ] [provide you with the books Darryl. Email me directly at cld@prin.edu ] [for details. I will begin the trek to other bookstores this week, as ] [the first person I did this for wants a 2nd set to give out to his ] [players. ] Maybe if there was a Tekumel primer book, designed for a player, that taught the basics of Tsolyanu culture? Any opinion (or flames, after all i may have offended everyone here without knowing it :-) Darryl Staring at the gate. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu